The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Heledd Fychan.

Flood Insurance

Heledd Fychan AS: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding support for businesses in South Wales Central who are unable to obtain or afford insurance due to the ongoing risk of flooding? OQ58874

Vaughan Gething AC: I have regular meetings with my colleague the Minister for Climate Change. Our funding objectives and strategic priorities to reduce the flood risk to communities and businesses across Wales are set out in our national flood strategy and the programme for government.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. This is a specific question in terms of insurance, because, for residential homes, there is an insurance scheme through a levy on insurance companies, namely Flood Re. Such a scheme isn't available for businesses, which means that many have very costly insurance or cannot obtain insurance to safeguard them from flooding. With the climate crisis meaning that floods are increasingly likely, a number of businesses in my region are very concerned and have said clearly that they won't be able to afford to reopen if they experience flooding again in future. So, I just wanted to ask whether there have been any discussions in terms of creating an equivalent scheme to Flood Re for businesses, and, if not, would the Minister commit to looking into such discussions?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm happy to have a discussion with my colleague the Minister for Climate Change around insurance for businesses because I understand, too, the Flood Re, developed in association with the Association of British Insurers, covers domestic properties; it doesn't cover businesses. So, I'm more than happy to take up the Member's suggestion, around the conversations that are ongoing and where the prospects are for a scheme to help cover businesses as opposed to households. So, I'll happily take that up myself with the Minister for Climate Change and report back.

Joel James MS: Minister, as we know, inflation is having an adverse effect on every budget, and money allocated to help reduce the impact of flooding and coastal erosion is no exception. Given that the cost of materials that will be used in providing flood defences has risen considerably, budgets are going to be stretched and it's now more important than ever that funds are used efficiently. Can I therefore ask what conversations have you had with the Minister for Climate Change and the Minister for Rural Affairs to ensure that assessments are being made to ascertain if budgets allocated to help prevent flooding and coastal erosion are not only providing value for money and are being used efficiently, but are also meeting the needs of those who need them?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I can confirm that those conversations do take place and it's a real concern for the Welsh Government. You'll see in the draft budget that we published yesterday the reality of how we make the whole budget balance. And the relative value of the Welsh Government's budget has significantly decreased because the realities of inflation within that prioritisation is looking at both of the points you make around the value for money in the schemes that there are, the efficacy and what that actually means, and how far our money can stretch in providing adequate flood defence measures. It also reinforces the other action we're looking to take to deal with some of the challenges and causes of flooding, as well as the flood defence schemes that you mentioned.

Support for Businesses

Sioned Williams MS: 2. What support is the Welsh Government offering to businesses in South Wales West in light of the cost-of-living and cost-of-doing-business crisis? OQ58888

Vaughan Gething AC: As the Member will know, the levers to tackle cost increases on businesses, interest rates for borrowing, taxation of windfall profits and regulation of the energy market lie squarely with the UK Government. Our priority remains to support businesses to decarbonise and to save. We continue to identify opportunities to redirect resources to reduce burdens on businesses, and, of course, the Member will be aware of the statement made by the Finance Minister on non-domestic rates.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Weinidog. The cost-of-living crisis, high inflation and rising energy costs in particular all pose huge threats to businesses in the hospitality sector especially—a sector that employs 200,000 people in Wales. And while I welcome the inclusion of more support on business rates in Welsh Government's draft budget yesterday, albeit with the caveat that perhaps support could be more flexible and targeted, there's certainly more that could be done here by Welsh Government to help businesses survive this cost-of-doing-business crisis, particularly energy-intensive businesses in the hospitality sector, such as restaurants and independent breweries. The owner of one restaurant in my region, Ristorante Vecchio in Bridgend, recently shared how their energy bill was now at £8,000 a month. So, Minister, what is Welsh Government doing to help businesses invest in energy efficiency and green energy in order to reduce their costs and help lower the carbon emissions of our businesses at the same time?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. This is not just topical, it's important not just for now but for the future as well. And we're looking at opportunities both to decarbonise but I would say also to save costs and to help the bottom line, and I think it's important that we do both of those things. Some businesses will be persuaded by the broader imperatives of the climate, and others will want to know, 'Will this help me with my business, or not, because I need to survive to next month, to next quarter, to next year?' And that's exactly what we're doing. We've got campaigns that we've already launched previously, through Business Wales—the resource efficiency advisers are already in place, we have a green ambition campaign and green growth pledge through Business Wales, and we can help businesses with their ambitions to become greener and smarter. But, in particular, when it comes to direct support—and I've outlined this in both evidence to committee and, I think, in previous questions as well—early in the new year, we'll do more on launching some of the work we're going to do on specific decarbonisation support, together with the scheme that the Development Bank of Wales will provide for loan finance, to help businesses to invest in decarbonisation, to invest in energy generation, as well as efficiency, and that really should help businesses with their bottom line, in addition to the support we're providing through non-domestic rates relief here in Wales, as announced at the start of this week.

Altaf Hussain AS: Our small and medium-sized businesses are the lifeblood of our economy, and it is in our national interest for companies to be sustained and to grow. What discussions has the Minister had with the Development Bank of Wales about the risk to businesses' viability over the next six to 12 months, and the potential for support that could be available? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: We have a range of finance support available through the development bank for small and medium-sized businesses. Part of our challenge, as has been indicated by Sioned Williams in her opening question and the follow-up, is that there are particular pressures in different parts of the economy. So, broadly, those businesses that rely on discretionary spend—and I met the visitor economy forum today—are being squeezed at the one end by reductions in consumer spend, and at the same time their costs are going up, not just energy costs, but a range of those, and they're finding that their raw material costs, food and drink, are all rising. And you will have seen today that headline inflation was 10.7 per cent, and food inflation is at 16.5 per cent. So, a range of people in different sectors have even more extreme pressures than the headline rates. And what we're trying to do is to both understand what's taking place in those sectors and the availability of the support that we have. The truth is that, over the next year, there will be a very difficult picture for lots of businesses, and we will have to prioritise the support that we have available. And often, as well as the broad sector support we have, we'll have to have individual conversations with businesses. And I would say again, for businesses that are concerned about how to find out what support is available through the Welsh Government, Business Wales is the first gateway to do so, and they can direct you to all parts of our support system, to make sure that, if we have the support available, we can help provide where it is, and, equally, if support might be available through a UK Government scheme, we can direct you to that as well.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, it goes without saying that 2022 has been a particularly difficult year for Welsh businesses. We know that businesses are facing continued challenges in terms of cost pressures, high interest rates and global economic weaknesses. Businesses have made it clear that issues such as business rates, skills development and infrastructure investment continue to be a major concern. And whilst I appreciate the Welsh Government has provided additional support for business rates for some businesses in its budget, there is still more that needs to be done to ensure that businesses are in the best shape possible to help lift the economy out of recession through economic growth. Minister, the Federation of Small Businesses recently told the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee that one third of businesses said access to skills and helping skills growth was their greatest barrier to growth. Therefore, what immediate action are you taking to address this issue and ensure businesses can recruit and retain staff in the very near future?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, there is both the challenge that we face and indeed the action that we're taking. And the challenge that we face, the Member will know, because we've talked about it and it's a reality, is that the challenges in replacement European Union funds are a significant problem in the skills landscape. We funded a whole range of our skills interventions through former EU funds. The fact that the replacement funds deliver a significant cut in cash terms to Wales, of over £1 billion over three years, is a real problem for us. And, actually, the landscape in terms of having UK Government interventions that cut us out make it more difficult as well. I continue to try to have constructive conversations with the UK Government about how we could resolve some of those challenges. What we are doing, though, within the levers we do have, is you'll have seen there's the broad choice I've made within the draft budget in my department around what we're going to try to do to preserve the impact of some of our spending around apprenticeships and skills. That includes the training at the outset of someone's career, at various points in their career, and, indeed, personal learning accounts. I've been very pleased to work with the Minister for Education in particular, to look at maintaining the progress we've made on personal learning accounts, and, indeed, the skills investment we're looking to make not just across sectors, but, broadly going back to question 2, the points around how we have the right sort of green skills available in the economy. So, there's a range of things we are already doing in the skills space, but it will be a difficult challenge in the year ahead. But you'll continue to see direct Welsh Government support on exactly this issue.

Paul Davies AC: Well, Minister, the Confederation of British Industry have said that their recent employment trends survey found fewer than half of businesses expect to grow their workforce in the next 12 months, and they do rank access to labour and skills, followed by the cost of living, as their top three priorities. So, it's vital that the Welsh Government delivers pro-growth economic policies and, where it needs to, reverses policy making where there is evidence that it can damage businesses. For example, businesses across Wales have said that the proposed tourism tax will have an enormous impact on their businesses. They've also made it clear that changes to the criteria for a holiday let property to qualify for business rates will have a detrimental impact on them too.Minister, when businesses are telling you that your Government policy will have a detrimental impact on the economy, it's vital that the Welsh Government listens. Minister, why haven't you listened and dropped proposals for a tourism tax, and the 182-day holiday let rule, in light of the fierce opposition the policies have had from Welsh businesses, and what message do you have as economy Minister for those businesses in Wales that will be affected by the Welsh Government's plans?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, when it comes to anti-growth measures, the most significant anti-growth intervention, of course, took place in the six weeks of Liz Truss's premiership. That was a significant intervention that made all of the challenges that exist within the economy much, much worse. And it was amusing to hear the anti-growth coalition being talked about and then seeing the hole that was blown by Kwasi Kwarteng and Liz Truss. So, there's no need for any lectures from any Tory in this Chamber, or anywhere else, on this issue.
When it comes to what we are doing, we're delivering on the manifesto we were elected to deliver. That includes the measures we're taking on the visitor levy. It includes a conversation I had this morning with the visitor economy forum, where they're looking to work with us on the design of a levy that actually tries to do what it's supposed to do, and, in areas of the country where there is a challenge that local authorities want to reduce the levy, to then understand how that might be delivered in a way that works with the industry that we want to see carry on growing. And, actually, the biggest challenge facing that sector and others isn't the visitor levy, it isn't any policy position the Welsh Government takes; it's the challenge of not seeing enough growth in the UK-wide economy, the challenge of the cost-of-living crisis, the challenge in our ability to trade with other parts of the world, and what that's done to inflationary pressures in the economy that are above and beyond the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
When it comes to skills and labour, we are recognising those issues and challenges, and that's why our interventions could and should make a difference. We have challenges in labour supply that we are looking to address earlier in the life cycle of people, as well as what we're doing on skills investment. We need a much more grown-up conversation about migration and its value to the future of the economy. We need much more recognition of the cost-of-living challenges, which, if left unaddressed, will mean businesses will not last into the longer term future. And that's why the energy relief scheme for businesses is so important. And the difficulty is—and this came up very much today, and in other business meetings that I've had—that if the UK Government don't pass the legislation, discounts won't get passed on to businesses. So, you may find businesses that can't wait until the review is up, and they understand what will happen in the longer term future, who may not be here to deal with that future.
So, when it comes to the immediate challenges that are facing businesses, those are the direct conversations I'm having with them, and, indeed, that I look to have with the UK Government, where the real focus for action should be in the here and now.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, the reality is that, with one hand, you're trying to offer an olive branch to some businesses via additional rate relief, and, with the other hand, you're implementing policies that could be fatal for hundreds of Welsh businesses. I guess the Deputy Minister for Climate Change was right when he said that the Welsh Government didn't know what it was doing when it comes to the economy.So, let me try another one. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales's latest business confidence index for Wales shows that business confidence has fallen for the fifth consecutive quarter, and they are right to say that it's vital that 2023 is the year to develop environmentally sustainable long-term economic growth. There are significant opportunities in the move to decarbonise the economy, and I know that work is currently being done by the Development Bank of Wales to fast track a new invest-to-save scheme to support businesses to decarbonise, but, unfortunately, businesses continue to delay in investing in green solutions due to to rising costs. Therefore, Minister, can you provide an update on the development bank's decarbonisation programme? And I listened very carefully to your earlier answer to Sioned Williams, and I understand that you will be making further announcements next year, but can you tell us when you'll be making those further announcements?

Vaughan Gething AC: Let's just deal with some of the challenges that come here. And I do say this as gently but as honestly as I can, to the Member: when it comes to talk of anti-growth policies, when it comes to talk of whether you know what you're doing, actually, you just need to look at what happened in the disastrous six weeks and what it did to tank the economy across the UK. Your party, that many of your own members were celebrating not just the election of Liz Truss, but celebrating the plan that she introduced, now need to look long and hard at themselves, at what actually happened. And it's not just that. If you look at what the CBI are saying, they say the UK Government does not have a plan for growth. And, actually, without a plan for growth across the UK, it will make our challenge much, much harder.
When you look at what we are doing, I will be announcing, early in the new year, with the Development Bank of Wales, a scheme to support businesses to grow, a scheme to support businesses to decarbonise and improve their bottom line. I'm looking forward very much to the announcement early in the new year, and I then look forward to a constructive response from Members in this Chamber and beyond. I'm very clear this Government thinks that, in a very difficult year ahead, there will be opportunities to help preserve Welsh businesses and Welsh jobs, but also, in a range of sectors, to see real growth, where we do have opportunities. I'm determined to do that, whilst calling out the incompetence of the UK Government at every possible turn.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the announcement in the draft budget relating to business rates relief has been broadly welcomed by businesses across Wales, especially so in the hospitality, retail and leisure sector. The Federation of Small Businesses said, for example, that the measures will go some way to alleviate the pressures on small firms that they are facing. However, I am sure the Minister is aware of comments made by Wales Fiscal Analysis in Cardiff University, saying that it is arguably a blunt instrument to use when dealing with a recession, and, of course, by their analysis, larger businesses instead of smaller ones would benefit more from this non-targeted support. How would the Minister respond to that?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, as ever, we're using the tools that we do have at our disposal, and the understanding of a scheme that people understand, because of the way that we have supported businesses in this area before, and, of course, we already have a range of reliefs built in to our system for smaller businesses in any event, and we've got a cap on the amount that businesses can benefit from as well. That actually means that the largest businesses won't have an even bigger amount provided to them. The cap means that we can then recycle more of that money that would otherwise go to larger businesses into our smaller and medium-sized firms. As ever, we're always interested in how we can have better and more targeted tools. There is, though, a pay-off or a trade-off in all of these. A scheme that is simple and easy to understand and administer, that can get money out rapidly, can have some edges around it that are more fuzzy. If you look for a more targeted scheme, it will make it more complex, and you're going to have to invest more time, energy and effort in the design and the delivery of it, and the more targeted and more complex a scheme, the more likely you are to see businesses fall through the gaps in it. So, there's always a choice to be made here. I'm comfortable we've made the right practical choice in where we are, and we'll need to continue to flex, as we move through the next difficult year ahead, with a recession that even the Chancellor of the Exchequer acknowledges we're at the start of, and, as I say, it will be a difficult year ahead for many businesses in the sector, which is why we've made this announcement of support over the next two years.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Of course, one of the things that they mentioned was that smaller businesses would miss out on that support. So, isn't it the case that we need that targeted support? There is a recognition that support is needed elsewhere. We've heard about energy today, and that business rates themselves, of course, as well, need reform. That, of course, was the view of the director of the CBI, who said that we should use the reprieve now in Wales to see how we can reform business rates. I'd be interested in knowing the Minister's view on that. Of course, we're at the time of year where hospitality in particular relies on the revenue made now in order to survive those much quieter few months in the new year. It's true, of course, generally, we've seen increased footfall, but spend per head is down, and today's news on inflation paints a very bleak picture for the hospitality sector in general.
I've mentioned previously in the Chamber—we've heard it again today from both Sioned Williams and Paul Davies—about the need to help small businesses go green. But what the sector is also facing is a recruitment crisis. In what way does the Minister see the Welsh Government's role in addressing this recruitment crisis? This crisis was an issue during the pandemic, it's continued to this day, yet very little seems to have been done by the Welsh Government to address it effectively.

Vaughan Gething AC: There are two things. On non-domestic rates reform, that is a conversation that I continue to have with the finance Minister, who, as you understand, is the ministerial lead when it comes to reform of taxation. There's a significant programme of reform that continues to move at pace on broader taxation. You know of the work we're doing on council tax reform, for example. So, we are looking at what the future might look like. Understanding how we deliver a different scheme is really important to understand how you smooth out winners and losers within it to get to a better or a fairer system. That is work that we continue to look at.
When it comes to the particular challenges facing hospitality, it is one of the things that I am genuinely concerned about, when it comes to how much consumers will spend in this period of time that is really important for the hospitality sector and what that means for those businesses and their ability to survive in the new year, when January is normally a slower month, and whether businesses will look again, as a number of them already are doing, at whether they reduce the hours or the days that they're open as a means of dealing both with the reality of reduced consumer spend and the staffing problems that you've referred to.
During the last year, we have worked alongside the industry to try to do something more positive about recognising it as a sector that people can go into for careers and not simply casual work, which is the way that it's portrayed by some people as the only way of working in the sector. I've committed to looking with them again in the new year at what we might be able to do to encourage people to take this up as a job, as a career, to try to address the reality that we're not seeing people who want to come to work in the sector. As we've discussed in the Chamber and outside before, part of the challenge is the way that consumers behave in some parts of the hospitality sector, and about recognising, whilst the sector is short staffed, to show some kindness and understanding for those people that are there, as well as looking to get more people to want to come to work in the sector at a rate that is fair in terms of our ambitions around fair work and fair pay and also allows the businesses to plan for their own future.

The SA1 Development in Swansea

Mike Hedges AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the SA1 development in Swansea? OQ58856

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. Good progress continues at SA1, with good levels of developer and occupier interest. The University of Wales Trinity Saint David’s matrix innovation quarter proposals are progressing, the student accommodation development on Kings Road is nearing completion, and the Welsh Government has completed the acquisition of the Prince of Wales dock.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the Minister for that response? As I mentioned yesterday in a question to the First Minister, there have been a number of high-tech successes in SA1. Also, SA1 is a further development in Swansea that combines residential, high-skilled employment and commercial activity, with development being driven by, as the Minister said, the University of Wales Trinity Saint David. And I think it is important that we look to more high-skill, high-value jobs, rather than the Conservatives' view that we want to have lots of low-skill, low-paid jobs. When will the Welsh Government complete the transfer of the highway infrastructure to Swansea council?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the points made. You're right that it is an area where we're seeing a successful combination in the development of a scheme that combines residential, high-skilled employment and commercial activity. What we're looking to do is we are having constructive conversations with Swansea council about the adoption and what we hope will be the eventual transfer to local authority responsibility of the estate roads. I know it's an issue that residents at SA1 take an interest in. As we're at a point where we're having conversations between lawyers about how that might work, when we get to the point when I'm able to give a more definitive update, I'll happily provide that to him, because I know this is an issue of significant concern to the Member and his constituents.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I thank Mike Hedges for tabling the question? Although I'm not too sure where his supplementary came from. But the Minister will no doubt be aware of the importance of the SA1 site and the investment and high-value jobs that come with the development. The last time this was raised, Minister, and in answer to my colleague Altaf Hussain, you mentioned that, quote:
'There is still some undeveloped land at SA1 in the ownership of the Welsh Government, and we're looking to ensure that that is fully developed and finalised.'
Obviously, the land that has already been developed has proven to be very effective in, as I mentioned, attracting that investment to the area. With the potential for even more jobs and investment in this area, it's vital Welsh Government does all it can to attract that investment. Therefore, could the Minister update the Senedd as to what discussions are taking place to finalise some of that undeveloped land, particularly the land under the ownership of the Welsh Government, and what further economic benefit will that bring to the local area in SA1?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, we continue to be in discussions with developers about the land—again, for a mix of residential and commercial uses. I don't want to comment about the actual discussions that are ongoing that are yet to be completed, but we are looking at options for that continued development to help to finalise it, together with the steps we've taken to acquire the Prince of Wales dock as well. So, you can expect there to be continued development on the site, and I think the fact that there's been significant development already gives us prospects to be optimistic about the proposals and the discussions that I've referenced being brought to a successful conclusion, with further development on there, further jobs and high-quality homes for local people.

Horizon Europe

Luke Fletcher AS: 4. How does the Minister intend to support Welsh research and development in light of ongoing uncertainties with Horizon Europe? OQ58889

Vaughan Gething AC: Welcome back. It is frustrating that political differences between the EU and UK have created continued uncertainty and the inability to resolve association with Horizon Europe. The UK Government has previously allocated £6.8 billion for EU programmes in this area to the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, without a separate Welsh Government allocation. We do have a range of support, including funding through our Horizon Europe unit, based in the Welsh European Funding Office, and Global Wales, plus the innovation strategy that is in development.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: The UK Government recently announced a package of measures to support UK R&D amidst the continuing uncertainty over association with Horizon Europe. Within the package, as you've mentioned, is a pledge of £100 million quality-related funding for English universities, from which Wales will receive consequentials. It is important to highlight the fact that QR funding is unique in the sense that there are very few areas where Wales is directly competing against England, but universities are one of those areas competing for grants and students, both domestic and international. The loss of any funding reduces potential growth in Wales and increases the likelihood of brain drain. Welsh universities must have the same pro rata as English universities, if we are going to be able to compete for UK-wide funding, so is the Minister therefore willing to make assurances that any consequentials that come the Welsh Government's way will be ring-fenced for QR funding for Welsh universities?

Vaughan Gething AC: So, the education Minister has already announced an increase in QR funding previously. When it comes to consequentials from this announcement, we are in active conversation with the UK Government to finalise the amount and the usage of that. There is always a challenge—and I understand why it's made—when there is an announcement made for a particular sector within England for exactly the same use to be applied here in Wales. Welsh Ministers will decide what to do, when we have finalised the amount coming, and we'll make that decision openly and transparently for Members and, indeed, people interested in this particular sector. But I'm very keen that we do see a return on that money that does not mean that Wales loses out in the money that's available. And I recognise the importance in this area of actually doing something to resolve the gap that has been left in research funding for universities as a result of the failure to resolve Horizon Europe.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Luke Fletcher is quite right to say the UK Government has announced that, if it is unable to associate with Horizon, then it will continue to support the research and innovation sector through transitional arrangements. This includes the UK guarantee scheme, which then provides funding to researchers and innovators unable to reach their Horizon Europe funding while the UK is in the process of associating to the programme. The UK Government provides over £8 billion-worth of funding support across five different schemes, including funds for industrial strategy and global challenges. And most recently, of course, we've seen the establishment of the Advanced Research and Invention Agency, set up with an initial £800 million investment to develop high-reward research. Now, by way of contrast, alongside Horizon, the Welsh Government offers just two additional research and innovation funds: Sêr Cymru and SCoRE Cymru. So, to point the finger at the UK Government, when they provide the overwhelming bulk of R&I funding, really isn't good enough. So, Minister, with this in mind, how will you be working with the UK Government to make sure that Wales does deliver on its own science funding commitments? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: There are a couple of different points I think that we should make. There is the fact that because replacement funds have not been made available, we are over £1 billion down over three years; that's a matter of fact, not opinion. That directly affects research, development and innovation funding. That's, again, an inescapable fact. When it comes to improving the return for Wales from UK funds, that's a point that I've discussed both with the sector here as well as with UK Ministers.
Now, when it comes to the points that the Member has made about ARIA and other aspects, those actually are supposed to deliver funds on a UK-wide basis. I had some quite difficult conversations with a number of different science Ministers in the UK Government about the creation of ARIA itself and how it would function, and making sure that there was a structure that directly involved chief scientific officers from around the UK and not being centrally driven with one point, because the challenge is that the way that a number of funds have previously been delivered, about high-quality and high-value scientific research, the golden triangle in England tends to do a great deal better than the rest of the UK, including English regions as well as Wales. I'm very clear about our need in the new innovation strategy to get more from those UK funding sources; it's part of the reason I've met with UK Research and Innovation, part of the reason I've met yet again recently with Innovate UK, and I'm optimistic that when we get to not just the new strategy, but the way in which decisions are made, we should see a better return for Wales.
The other thing that I think would help all of us is some stability at the UK level. I welcome George Freeman's return to being the science Minister; he is someone who I think has been constructive and someone who understands the sector. I think what's been unhelpful is that I think I am now on my fifth or sixth UK science Minister to have conversations with. We would all be better off if there was a period of welcome stability. Even if we disagree with the UK Government's perspective, actually having some stability there would be welcome for all of us.

Average Salary

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 5. What is the Minister doing to increase the average salary in Dwyfor Meirionnydd? OQ58883

Vaughan Gething AC: We are using our skills, business support and economic development levers to help create and safeguard good-quality employment and to help improve progression opportunities. This supports our efforts to increase gross disposable income per head as part of our economic mission and our approach to a well-being economy here in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response, but I fear that the Government is looking for far too simplistic solutions to questions that are far more complex. There are a range of vacant jobs in Gwynedd at the moment; some pay very well, some not so well—doctors, vets, lecturers, teachers, planning officers, carers, and many more. But, nobody is asking the question why people aren't taking up these posts. The recent census shows the population falling here in Gwynedd, with a significant increase in the population over 65 and a worrying reduction in the working-age population. So, there is something far more deep-seated happening here. So, will you as a Minister, therefore, commit to carrying out a deep dive into what exactly is going on in rural Wales, in order to understand this phenomenon as to what is happening, and then, having gathered this information, we could start to identify the solutions to deal with the real problems?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm not sure that we need a deep dive, but what I did do at the start of this term, in work that I commissioned Jonathan Portes to do for the Welsh Government, was to look at a range of our challenges and factors. It includes both the reality that, as the Member has said, in some parts of Wales we're seeing a population move away from those areas. That's a big challenge in making sure that we have communities that have a future. It's part of the reason we set out in the economic mission the need to ensure that we help younger people to be able to plan their future in Wales, as well as attracting people to move to Wales to be part of our future story. Those could be Welsh diaspora moving back to us, it could be others too as well, because we want to see a real life for communities that is economically successful.
The challenge is also about the sort of economic future that we offer, which is why we need to invest in skills. It's why we need to recognise that in a range of the areas the Member has mentioned, the point that I made earlier about the relationship with migration is really important. Part of the challenge in the veterinary world that the Member mentioned—and I should note that I think I'm an honorary patron of the British Veterinary Association; my father was a vet as well—is recognising that, actually, part of the big challenge we've had is that a number of vets have come from Europe and further afield, and actually there is a big risk in what's already happened with a number of those people having left the UK. So, the pool for vets is short. At the same time, we're going to have an even bigger demand, particularly because of our changed border arrangements as well.
So, it is multifactorial—I recognise that—and our challenge is how we manage to have a response in the economic mission, but also a range of other Government departments too, that tries to meet that challenge to both get the sort of people we need to come into Wales and to give people who are brought up here the opportunity to plan a successful future in Wales as well, whether that's in urban or rural Wales. That's part of the reason I'm looking at economic development opportunities that aren't simply based around a model that says, 'Move people to cities', because that model itself won't work for Wales.

The Cost-of-Living Crisis

Cefin Campbell MS: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to provide support to businesses in Mid and West Wales as the cost-of-living crisis intensifies? OQ58880

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. The levers to tackle cost increases for businesses, interest rates for borrowing, taxation of windfall profits and regulation of the market lie squarely with the UK Government. Our priority is to support businesses to decarbonise and save, and we look for opportunities to help them to do so.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much. As we all know, small businesses are the backbone of our rural economy. However, the cost-of-living crisis has been a significant blow to them, with a recent report by the Federation of Small Businesses noting that 63 per cent of small businesses have seen energy costs increasing over the past year—two out of every five have seen their costs more than doubling.
Now, Mid and West Wales has a particularly high number of off-grid businesses that are dependent on LPG or oil for heating, and are therefore vulnerable to price variance in the market. For example, Caws Teifi—a notable cheese producer in Ceredigion—has experienced LPG prices increasing from 40p per litre to 80p per litre, and the total costs for energy on an annual basis have increased from £20,000 to £40,000. So, whilst rural businesses face these huge increases, the Westminster Government has only earmarked a pitiful sum of £150 to support off-grid businesses. So, as small businesses face an uncertain future, what support can the Welsh Government provide to assist off-grid businesses this winter?

Vaughan Gething AC: There is particular support available through Business Wales, and some of the energy efficiency advisors look at what might be possible for those businesses, because it will vary from one business to another. I recognise the point the Member makes about off-grid businesses and their energy costs as opposed to those businesses seeing energy cost increases who are on grid as well.
It also reinforces, though, the challenges in the energy relief scheme. As I said earlier, it's a scheme that hasn't had legislation passed, that isn't seeing discounts being passed directly onto businesses in the here and now as we face a winter, and the point that when the review is done, it will make a material difference for those businesses in terms of planning for the future. If the scheme doesn't have not just a longer term base to provide the certainty for businesses, then some of those businesses may choose to make permanent choices about their business. So, when that relief scheme comes, it will be an important point for businesses right across the UK, not just for those that are within the definition of what is an energy-intensive business. Part of my concern is whether those off-grid businesses will be part of the consideration for that. The points that we make, and indeed, in my recent appearance at the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee, I committed to sharing the evidence that we've provided to the BEIS consultation on the energy relief scheme, which will be directly relevant to a range of these businesses. I'll make sure that that is available, and it will become public once it's provided to the committee.

James Evans MS: Minister, I was alarmed to read that ONS statistics show that the average price of a pint of beer has gone up 9 per cent compared to last year, and more than 50 pubs a month are now closing across the UK, compared to around 30 pubs a month last year. Pubs are the heartbeat of many communities in Brecon and Radnorshire, and they play an important social role for many people. So, I'd like to ask the Minister: what is the Welsh Government doing to support our pubs through a difficult winter and beyond?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, we do certainly recognise that pubs are an important part of community life, not just as businesses employing people, but giving places a sense of place as well. And I've recognised again the way that pubs have been highlighted today and the brewing businesses have come up on more than one occasion in this set of questions: the challenges of raw material increases, the challenges of energy increasing in cost as well and what that then means for pubs that are then facing their own challenges in terms of getting the right number of staff and, indeed, their own costs going up. So, I recognise there's a challenge. The difficulty then comes, beyond the support that we have provided through business rates, about what other support we can practically provide in a budget that has little room for manoeuvre. You'll see in the draft budget there isn't a spare amount of cash that the finance Minister has held back to do so. And it's also on the back of today's inflation figures showing a modest fall from 11.1 per cent to 10.7 per cent, but as I've said, the headline rate for food and drink that directly affects how pubs can do business has gone up 16.5 per cent. So, I recognise there is a wide range of challenges, and it's the part of the conversation we'll continue to have, not just with the sector but with the UK Government to understand what we can do and what resources will be available to try to support pubs as businesses and important hubs within communities.

Net-Zero Skills Action Plan

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the Government's proposed net-zero skills action plan? OQ58886

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. I expect to launch our net-zero skills action plan in early 2023, and no later than the end of February 2023.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, thank you for that confirmation because we all recognise that it's very difficult to make progress with this agenda without a workforce that's empowered with the skills to deliver many of the interventions needed to achieve net zero. The Minister for Climate Change did emphasise to the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee recently that she couldn't emphasise strongly enough how important it was to make progress on this agenda as a matter of urgency. Now, the plan was to be published in the spring, of course. That was postponed until the summer. That was further postponed until Christmas, and now you have confirmed, of course, that that will happen in the new year. Can I ask why there were these delays and can I ask you to echo what you said in your first answer, that there won't be further slippage?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'm happy to confirm about some of the challenges that we needed to take on board. As you've seen, during the year, there have been a number of different events. It was our expectation that we would accomplish it within this financial year, we then had to deal with the shocks that have come at various points in the year, not just the autumn, but we then, as we'd reached the autumn and the challenges of the changed economic picture that radically took over, also wanted to include the latest evidence and advice available from the Climate Change Committee and a number of other publications. It would have been odd, I think, to have published our plan on net-zero skills and then the next day to have received evidence from the Climate Change Committee. So, we're looking to take those into account. I am expecting to be able to make an oral statement on the net-zero skills plan, so you will hear directly from me at the time about what we've done and why, and the balance we're looking to strike, having all of that information available, to how we bring together net-zero skills in a more co-ordinated way, what that will mean for businesses, what it will mean for sectors, what it will mean for providers, and crucially for people who want to equip themselves with these skills in the future as we look to decarbonise our economy and do so in a way that delivers on a just transition.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Yesterday, I had the opportunity to meet with Floventis Energy, one of the many floating offshore wind companies choosing to invest in the Celtic sea. Floventis have developed the capacity to generate 200 MW of floating offshore wind energy, 35 km off the coast of Pembrokeshire—yet another key player helping us to achieve our net-zero ambitions. The opportunities in the Celtic sea, Minister, are vast: a successful Celtic free port bid, coupled with the renewable energy opportunities could and should supercharge Pembrokeshire into a green energy peninsula. Therefore, I'd be grateful to know what the Welsh Government is doing to futureproof our workforce, giving current and future generations the skills to succeed in the green sector now and into the future. Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I should just make the point that, in responding, I won't be making any kind of indication about the free ports and the competing bids. It was mentioned in the question, and I just want to make that absolutely clear. However, my officials are reviewing the bids, together with UK Government officials, as the bidding deadline has finished. But I think you're right to point out that this is an area where we do expect significant economic growth, as well as green energy generation opportunities. It will also be something where, in the net-zero skills plan, I think the Member and the businesses in the sector more broadly will see a recognition of what we're able to do and what we're planning to do to try to make sure that we do capitalise on the economic opportunity that exists. This is one of the areas where I have a good deal more optimism in the year ahead than in some of the sectors that will face more challenges. I think there are people with resources they want to invest, opportunities they want to take up, and I look forward to a range of areas, including Pembrokeshire, taking advantage of the opportunities in the Celtic sea and what they will mean for the future of the Welsh economy.

Tourism

Rhys ab Owen AS: 8. What discussions has the Welsh Government had about making Cardiff an attractive tourism destination for Welsh and international visitors? OQ58879

Vaughan Gething AC: The Welsh Government continues to have discussions with a range of partners in supporting the cultural, sporting and business life of the capital city, which already contributes to making Cardiff a vibrant and attractive destination, both today and into the future.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Cardiff docks made Cardiff into a capital city by exporting coal to the whole world. Today, we are fortunate to welcome people back to Cardiff Bay, and it's a popular destination for locals and tourists alike. I've received a number of complaints that we're not maximising the potential of Cardiff Bay. The impression given to tourists enjoying the boardwalk around the Mermaid Quay currently is less than great, with large sections of the boardwalk fenced off for many months at a time, seemingly in a semi-permanent state, with no schedule of works in sight. There are similar issues to be seen on the Cardiff Bay trail, and I know all these walkways are very familiar to the Minister. Therefore, what discussions have you had with Cardiff city council and the port authority to ensure that 2023 is the year that Cardiff Bay can truly maximise its tourist potential? Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: I should note that I have to answer in very broad terms, given that this is in my constituency. I can't have ministerial discussions on this particular point, but I certainly do take up the opportunity to talk with the council and other partners about this and other areas of interest within the great and glorious constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth.

And because it's Christmas, question 9, John Griffiths.

Economic Development

John Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and merry Christmas.

John Griffiths AC: 9. What is the Minister's latest assessment of economic development in Newport East? OQ58872

Vaughan Gething AC: Welsh Government continue to work collaboratively with Newport City Council and the Cardiff capital region to help build a strong economy in Newport and the surrounding areas.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, I've recently met with constituents who work at Newport Wafer Fab and Nexperia, and they're very concerned, along with others in the 600-plus workforce, at the current situation, and particularly, of course, at the UK Government decision forcing Nexperia to sell at least 86 per cent of its stake in Newport Wafer Fab. These are very well-paid and high-tech, highly skilled jobs, as I know you're aware, Minister. The UK Government, having cited national security concerns for their decision, now seem to have walked away from the consequences. I know the workforce feel this very strongly, having met with them onsite and here just this week, along with colleagues such as Jayne Bryant, in whose constituency, of course, the plant is situated. Obviously, what the workforce wants and the company wants, Minister, is for UK Government to engage, to have a dialogue, to be part of finding a way forward that protects these crucial, valuable jobs, and indeed planned investment. So, Minister, will the Welsh Government do all it can to ensure that the UK Government faces up to its responsibility and supports these quality jobs and this high-tech industry in Newport?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I recognise what the Member had to say about Jayne Bryant. Nexperia is, of course, in her constituency, but I recognise the Member will have a number of constituents who work there as well. I had the opportunity to meet a group of staff from Nexperia in a meeting hosted by Jayne Bryant, and I know other Members took the opportunity to drop in to listen to them too.
We agree that the UK Government needs to undertake more engagement around the future of this particular business. There are over 600 well-paid jobs at that site in an industry with a very clear future, but an industry that also will, I think, need some time to transition to a future should the divestment and sale go ahead. There are challenges about the order book, because those people are Nexperia customers. There's also a challenge about future investment that would need to be made, and, crucially, about the people. It's not just the 600 people with families and well-paid jobs we should be concerned about, it's about some of those people who, if there isn't a clear plan for the future, may make alternative choices.
That is not what I think lies behind the UK Government's decision on the national security basis following the review, but I'm looking for certainty about what the future means—a plan for the future that involves the UK Government and involves further conversations with the company and other potential investors. Those are points that I've been looking to take up when I meet Grant Shapps, Secretary of State at BEIS. I'm due to meet him before the end of this week. We're certainly looking for an approach together with the UK Government that involves us and our direct relationships with the business and, indeed, the wider sector.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

The next set of questions are questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services—[Interruption.] The first question is from Natasha Asghar.

It's okay.

Fracture Liaison Services

Natasha Asghar AS: 1. What action is the Minister taking to improve fracture liaison services in Wales? OQ58875

Eluned Morgan AC: Sorry, I'm just rescuing my water now. Thank you very much. I have made clear my expectation that all patients in Wales should receive equitable access to fracture liaison services, and we are working with health boards to achieve this.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Minister. Osteoporosis, I am sure you understand and know better than I do, affects more than 180,000 people in Wales, and fracture liaison services can help to transform the quality of life for many older people in Wales and deliver cost savings to the NHS. At present, only two thirds of people in Wales aged over 50 have access to the fracture liaison services, compared to 100 per cent coverage in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Extending and improving the quality of service could free up the 73,000 acute hospital bed days and 16,500 rehabilitation bed days estimated to be taken up by hip fracture patients over the next five years, delivering huge savings to the NHS. For example, the Royal Osteoporosis Society says providing a full FLS in the Aneurin Bevan health board area would cost just over £343,000 a year. Over five years, 337 hip fractures and 114 spinal fractures would be prevented, saving the NHS an estimated £6.6 million. So, do you agree, Minister, that we have a real opportunity here to improve the lives of people across Wales? Will you commit to investing in the fracture liaison services to provide 100 per cent cover across Wales? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Natasha, and thank you for the opportunity to draw attention to the fact that, actually, in cold weather, in icy weather, in snowy weather, you are more likely to fall. I would ask, in particular, those who are more frail to pay particular attention at this time of year, because the last thing we need is more pressure on our NHS at this point in time. So, thank you for that.
I think it's really important that we do everything we can in the preventative space when it comes to ensuring that we improve the fracture situation in Wales. We know that one in two women and one in five men over the age of 50 are expected to break a bone during their lifetime, so that's a lot of people. And so, we do need to put some measures in place. I was really delighted to have attended the conference on World Osteoporosis Day in October where we made it very clear that we do expect to see significant improvement in this space. What we've got is a situation where Wales currently has about 72 per cent coverage, and England has about 57 per cent coverage, but I am determined to get to 100 per cent, and that's what that conference was about. It was really about asking people to look at best practice and to make sure that health boards take their responsibility seriously in this area.

The Women's Health Plan

Cefin Campbell MS: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the women's health plan and its relevance to women and girls in Mid and West Wales? OQ58882

Eluned Morgan AC: The NHS Wales collaborative has led the development of a 10-year women's health plan, and this will form the service's response to the requirement set out in the women and girls health quality statement. The plan will deliver improvements to health provision for women across all regions of Wales.

Cefin Campbell MS: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Minister, you may recall me sharing my constituent Emily's story some months ago during Plaid Cymru's opposition debate on women's health. Tragically, she was forced to endure almost a 10-year wait for a diagnosis of endometriosis, a condition that affects one in 10 women across Wales. Now 24, Emily lives with stage 4 endometriosis, adenomyosis and other symptoms that remain to be diagnosed. She can no longer work, nor drive, and lives with chronic pain every single day. Despite her best efforts to work with clinicians and the health board to improve the care she receives, she's still waiting for a referral for specialised care and treatment. She tells me she has no option now but to pay for private healthcare. We know that this is just one story of many.

Cefin Campbell MS: Minister, you said that the first stage—and we've heard you confirm this—of the update to the women's health plan would be published in the autumn, and now we are in the final week before the Christmas recess. So, I urge you to say when exactly this plan will be published, and it should be published immediately to avoid the kinds of experiences that individuals such as Emily have faced over the past few years.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I'm very sorry to hear Emily's story; she is one of many women suffering from endometriosis. We have recognised that we need to do far more in this area, and that's why we do have endometriosis nurses in all health boards across Wales. So, improvements are being made, but we also recognise that we need more doctors who can undertake the interventions necessary for many women.
In terms of the announcement, what we have done now—. This will be an announcement made by the NHS, rather than by Government, but I have seen it. I've said that I am happy with the direction of travel and I very much hope that that will be published and made available during the next week. What's contained within that is the results of a consultation that we carried out with women across Wales to ask them what they think is needed in such a plan. And what we'll have is that response, what the 4,000 respondents think should be included in the plan, and then that will be taken forward and hopefully we'll have a further step forward in the summer. Because this will be a 10-year plan, and I'm very eager to ensure that we don't just look at issues related to gynaecology and those aspects of women's health, but I think it's also important that we look at things like asthma, anxiety and migraines, which impact women in a different way. So, there's a lot of work still to be done, but what was important was to ensure that it was women who felt that they could influence the shape and content of the programme.

James Evans MS: Minister, as you're well aware, we as Welsh Conservatives held a debate in this Chamber on gynaecological cancer that affects women. We had some clear calls in that debate that we feel could actually really help women right across who are suffering with this awful, awful disease. What I would like to know today from the Welsh Government is what are you doing to address gynaecological cancer here in Wales, and what actions have you taken, following on from that debate, to make sure that no more women in Wales have to suffer from this horrendous disease.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'm pleased to say that I have followed up on that debate, and one of the things that I've done is to hold a cancer summit meeting, where, obviously, we looked at the breakdown of where we need to make further progress in relation in particular to gynaecological cancer. We're putting pressure on health boards to make sure that they understand what are the optimum pathways, to make sure that they can learn from each other. One of the key purposes of these cancer summits is that they understand what is the optimal pathway, following the best clinical advice. So, there has been progress, I'm pleased to say. I think we've got a long way to go, if I'm honest. Some of that is about workforce, but obviously, we'll be making announcements soon about what we plan to do in the workforce space.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I wish you and colleagues across the Chamber a happy Christmas, Minister?
Not a single surgical hub exists in Wales. Surgical hubs have been identified by the Royal College of Surgeons as essential to tackling the record treatment backlogs in the NHS, which now stands at over three quarters of a million cases in Wales. They've also proven central to reducing the backlog in England, which is why a further 50 are on the way, in addition to the 91 already in place. Minister, can I ask you why there aren't any surgical hubs in Wales when we have been telling you and your predecessor to put them in place for over two years?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, you may have noticed that, actually, where the populations are based in Wales, it's very different from what exists in England—they have big cities; they have places that are near each other. It's much easier for them to organise separate surgical hubs. What we are doing is we're ring-fencing elective surgery, which is effectively doing the same thing. So, making sure that elective surgery is not knocked out by the demands of urgent care. And in that sense, I think we have seen a lot of progress. Certainly, what we've got in Hywel Dda University Health Boardis now two new modular places where, actually, we're expecting to see about 4,000 additional procedures occurring per year.In Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, there is, again, effectively a hub, it's the same thing; it's a ring-fenced facility, and there, you'll see 4,000 additional cataracts a year being done. And also the Cardiff and Vale Orthopaedic Centre, where there is, again, protected activity. So, you call them what you want, that's effectively what they do—they do the same thing as surgical hubs.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Of course, they're not effectively the same thing, because we're having a very different outcome in Wales. We've got 50,000 people, Minister, waiting over two years for treatment and the same figure in England and Scotland is zero—they've been wiped out. So, we're in a very different position. So, although you've set out a different position in Wales, I would suggest that that position is not working. We have one in four patients here waiting for over a year for treatment and the figure in England is one in 20. Average waiting times in Wales are 10 weeks longer than in England. So, I would say, look at what's working in England and do as England do when it is working. And I don't think it's safe to say—. I think it's very difficult for you to meet your targets this year, Minister; you've got a target to meet by the end of March and I think that it is more or less a reality now that you're not going to meet that target. I hope you do, but I don't think you're going to meet that target. I think it's going to be a very difficult target to meet even by the end of 2024.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks. Listen, we've put in stretching targets; I'm confident that we are going to meet the target in many areas of specialisms and obviously, we're going to be pushing everybody to try. But we always said that orthopaedics in particular would be a particular challenge.
I think you've got to just understand that, actually, when your capital budget has been cut, effectively, which is what's happened, it's very difficult for us to establish new centres. And so, the option that you have available to you is to reorganise what you already have. So, we could theoretically say, 'Okay, we're going to stop doing accident and emergency in a particular hospital and we'll ring-fence that', but you're going to be a brave politician if you do that at the moment. And I'm certainly not in a position where I'm prepared to do that when the pressures on our accident and emergency are so great. But actually, what they've done in England is they've closed huge numbers of hospitals where they were previously providing accident and emergency, and we haven't done that in Wales. Now, that comes at a cost—it's very, very expensive, but actually, I just think there is a political decision that is being made here.And the public, I think, are keen to see most of those accident and emergency places remain open.

Russell George AC: Well, Minister, you've just got to look at the stats—the stats speak for themselves: in Wales, we are waiting 10 weeks longer for treatment than patients have to in England. So the stats do speak for themselves, and you can't get away from that.
But what my final question of the year would be to you, Minister, is: what do you believe is your biggest regret of 2022? And there is a bit of a shopping list here for you. Was it keeping in place the ineffective vaccine passports; recording the longest ambulance waiting times on record; the worst A&E waits in Britain; leaving a fifth of the population on an NHS waiting list; nurses on strike, ambulance workers on strike, midwives on strike; 1,200 further nurse vacancies and £130 million spent on agency nurses; NHS dentistry becoming a rare luxury; failing to support GPs to be more accessible and modernising NHS technology; or dodging accountability through a Wales-wide specific COVID inquiry? Is this what Keir Starmer means when he says, 'Look at Wales to see the good a Labour Government can do'?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, 'Happy Christmas' to you as well, Russell. [Laughter.] And I'm very pleased that that was your last question this year. Look, I've had better years, if I'm honest, and obviously, there are a lot of things that I wish that we'd seen improvements on and I wish we'd gone faster with some areas. Because for me, the key thing is to keep an eye on what is it that the public needs, and what they need is care in the right place at the right time. And I regret that we haven't been able to do more of that. And there are valid reasons for that: we have had a COVID pandemic; we have had massive inflationary impacts that have sucked £200 million out of the NHS budget; we have had massive, massive increases in demand; and we haven't seen some of the progress that I would have liked to have seen in relation to waiting times. But we're not at the point yet where we've hit the deadline, and I, as the Minister responsible, will continue to press the health boards, to make sure that they do everything they can to make sure that they work towards meeting those targets that we made very, very clear in April that we expect them to meet.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. And in the final health questions of the year, may I take this opportunity to wish the Minister, the Senedd, and everyone working across the health and care services a very 'Merry Christmas'? But it sounds quite an empty greeting, when we look at the challenges that those services face. I truly didn't know what to ask today. There are so many things that I could pursue: the winter challenges; the staff recruitment and retention crisis; treatment waiting times in A&E; ambulance waiting times; the future of the air ambulance; strikes; I could have included the shortage of antibiotics—there's a topical question that's been accepted on that. Where does one start? But let me ask you this: what state does the Minister expect the NHS to be in by the time I can ask my next questions here in the Senedd? I fear that patients and staff have lost faith in the Government's ability to manage the NHS. Can I ask the Minister to give us something—anything—that we can see as improving, a corner turned, in order to prove that we can trust in the Minister?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, it's clear that we spend a great deal of time preparing for winter—we know that there will be pressures during the winter months. They've already started—we've seen how much pressure there was on the services over the past weekend. It doesn't help when we see rates of scarlet fever increasing—we didn't expect to see that. So, there are things arising that we don't expect to see. But of course, additional funding is available for next year, for the health service.That is going to be a difficult situation when you factor in inflation. But there are some areas where I do think we will see a difference over the winter. One of them will be the fact that we are going to see 100 additional ambulance workers starting in post during the Christmas period. They've been in training; I hope that will take away some of the pressure from the ambulance service. And, also, there will be an announcement on Friday from the Deputy Minister, on care, which also, hopefully—. We've been working on that for many months, together with local government, to provide additional help in our communities, but we'll make a more detailed announcement on that at the end of the week.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Well, 'hope' was a word used there. I fear that that is the Minister hoping for the best; the NHS isn't going to overcome its problems if the Minister simply hopes for the best. And with more ambulance staff, of course, it's a problem of failing to get patients into hospital, so more staff isn't going to resolve that issue.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I do turn, though, in my second question, to the various pay disputes—nurses in Wales striking for the first time this week, ambulance staff and midwives to strike too. I'm keen to find a way through this, but Welsh Government still isn't even engaging in meaningful negotiations. Now, the Minister says her hands are tied. Let me ask her this: does she even want those hands to be untied, because nurses tell me that what they see is a Minister seemingly happy to hide behind the inaction of UK Government? And I'm not talking about financial constraints; goodness me, I know it's tough, and the Conservatives on the UK level need to hang their heads in shame for the proactive role that they've played in helping create the economic mess we're in. But, currently, the Minister is able to avoid the reprioritising, the innovative thinking, the possibility of using devolved powers at the Government's disposal by saying that there's nothing she can do.Well, if she really isn't able to negotiate, as she suggests, what is she doing to try to be given the powers to do so, so that we can support our workers and avert these strikes?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, look, first of all, I think it's important that I set on record once again that we understand the strength of feeling felt by those people who feel like they've got no other option but to take industrial action. We believe that all our public sector workers should be fairly rewarded, and we think that the chaos that has been created by the Tory Government, and the increases that we've seen in terms of inflation, has eroded a lot of the money that actually would have gone into the pockets of those nurses.
And I think what's important is that we understand that it's not just money going into the pockets of the nurses that's been eroded, but the fact is that, this year, I have had a bill for £207 million for energy that we weren't expecting. Now, £200 million would be the equivalent of giving a 4 per cent increase to NHS workers. Now, I don't think that we can switch the lights off in our hospitals. I don't think that we can switch the heating off in our hospitals, but that might be an option that Plaid Cymru might want to take. But that's not an option that I feel that we can take. And that's the difference between lobbing grenades from the other side of the Chamber and actually being in power, because you have to make those difficult decisions. And I frankly think that we have to keep the lights on, and to keep patients warm when they come into hospital. That's a decision that we've made.

Bangor Medical School

Siân Gwenllian AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the establishment of Bangor medical school? OQ58869

Eluned Morgan AC: Intake numbers for the Bangor medical school have been approved, and funding has also approved for 140 students per year once the school reaches optimum capacity. A letter of assurance was sent to General Medical Council colleagues in November to allow Bangor University to continue their forward momentum through the accreditation process. Thank you.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Well done, and it's good to see this scheme developing. But I would like to know if any further work is ongoing to ensure that the necessary percentage of prospective students who have skills in the Welsh language will attend the medical school. A new scheme was announced for 'More than just words', and I would like to know how the themes in that scheme are being implemented in Bangor, specifically, the theme with regard to planning for a bilingual workforce of tomorrow.
I’d also like to ask, as you heard me yesterday asking the First Minister, about the possibility of developing Bangor as a centre for health and medical training, referring to the teaching of dentistry and pharmacy as degree subjects. In terms of dentistry, there’s only one dentistry school in Wales. Don’t we need another one? Isn’t Bangor the obvious place to establish the second school of dentistry in Wales, bearing in mind the health and medical expertise quickly developing there?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. May I say that I was delighted to have met Professor Mike Larvin recently, just to ensure that we are making progress with developments in the university? We are highly aware that we do need to be cognisant of how much recruitment there will be in terms of the numbers that are Welsh speaking, and I know that a particular focus has been placed on that, with work currently being done in that area. So, I’m pleased to say that that is something that they are taking seriously.
In terms of dentistry, I’m sure you will have heard the First Minister mention yesterday that we are very eager to look at the broader dental team. I think we have to start with that team and ensure that we increase the numbers that, for example, are qualified dental therapists. We will see increases there; we have done in the past. But, I have put pressure HEIW to ensure that we go even further in that area and, to me, that’s the most important thing. We have to try and turn the system on its head and work with dental therapists. So, I would want to see that as a first step, and then, in the future, we can look at dentistry further.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased to see this question raised this afternoon, as, when the Government actually gets round to delivering the thing, rather than just talking about it, I'm sure it will have positive knock-on effects for people across north Wales who aspire to have careers in health and social care, and go some way to improving the recruitment and retention problems we currently face in Wales.
Now, last week, with the Health and Social Care Committee, I visited the nursing and midwifery school at the University of South Wales in Pontypridd, and they have state-of-the-art simulation wards that give students the opportunity to practise in a mock environment, to build their skills and confidence before being introduced to real-life situations. But, as with a lot of things under this Labour Government, what south Wales has in abundance, north Wales lacks. So, could the Minister outline some more details of the exact specifications of the medical school in Bangor, and whether students in north Wales will have the same opportunities as those in the south, so that we're best equipped to provide first-class care to people who need it the most and make sure north Wales people aren't left behind? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, I'm sure you will understand that, actually, we are very keen to get this under way as soon as possible. We are very aware that we need to increase the numbers of people in training to become medics, but, of course, we have to work within the confines that are set by the GMC. So, it's not up to us to say 'Right, switch it on'; we have to work with the GMC, which gives permission to the university to move on. What's good to hear, I think, is that already a team of 13 staff across medical and science teams have been recruited, and 6.6 of these are full time.
I think it's unfair to say that it's just in south Wales. I know that the Llywydd and I went to visit the new nursing training centre in Aberystwyth University recently, and they certainly had areas where there are simulation areas as well. Obviously, we'll have to wait and see how things develop in the school. You'll be aware that the capital constraints are very, very tight at the moment. So, at the moment, we'll see, as things continue, how things develop. Hopefully, by the time we get up to the full cohort of numbers, we will have a Labour Government that will be able to put more money into the system.

Ambulance Waiting Times

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on support for the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust in combating waiting times? OQ58866

Eluned Morgan AC: Welsh Government funding has enabled the Welsh ambulance service to deliver a range of actions to improve ambulance performance, including the recruitment of 100 additional staff, reformed rota arrangements, reductions in sickness absence, and new investment in technology to support clinical decision making.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. On Saturday, more than 2,000 emergency 999 calls were presented, this being a 17 per cent increase on last week. The trust responded to more than 200 immediately life-threatening red calls, and also 111 received over 10,000 calls—the busiest day ever for the service. In the face of the tsunami of calls, on Sunday, the trust declared a business continuity incident. Some were left waiting for hours while others were asked to make their own way to hospital. When considering that WAST staff have worked an average of 31,700 hours of overtime every month since April 2017 at a total cost of £61 million, it is clear that the continued operation of the service is hanging by a thread. Minister, you know my view that pressure should be alleviated in major hospitals by transferring those patients who are fit for discharge but who are still awaiting a social care package to community hospitals where there are still empty wards. I would be really grateful for your thoughts on that. Will you consider moving forward again, as you did last winter, with the ward, say, in Llandudno, where people were able to leave hospital and go there as a halfway house before returning home? That takes a lot of pressure off the families, the patients and the health board. Also, what plans have you got, moving forward, about asking for volunteers to come forward and help the Welsh NHS over the winter period? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. You're absolutely right to highlight the incredible pressure on the emergency services at the moment. As you say, we've seen, this October, the number of red immediately life-threatening calls the highest on record—77 per cent more than in October 2019. This is huge compared to what we've seen before. We have done a huge amount of investment, we've put huge support in place, we've put urgent primary care centres in place, we've rolled out 111, which didn't exist this time last year in north Wales. So, all of those things have actually taken a huge amount of pressure away from accident and emergency, but the demand keeps coming.
Obviously, last weekend, a lot of these—very, very understandably—were parents worried about their children. Certainly, a significant proportion of, for example, the 18,000 calls to NHS 111 were from parents who were worried about children with sore throats. So, we understand what's going on and we understand the pressure. Flow, as we all know, is a significant challenge for us and, as I say, the Deputy Minister and I will be making an announcement on that on Friday along with our local government colleagues.
The issue with beds is actually not the beds but the staffing. That's where the challenge for us constantly is. How do we get the staff in place, and in particular in relation to packages of care that need to be provided by local government? I'm very pleased, now that the budget has come out, that you will see that we have committed once again to honouring the real living wage, and hopefully that should attract more people into the system.
Volunteers are already helping out, but I think it is important that we try and galvanise where we can. What I don't want to do is to ask volunteers to come forward without a very clear plan. So, it does exist, and lots of health boards have these things in place. We've just got to be really careful that we don't raise expectations and then don't follow through. So, a structure is really important. That exists in some health boards, it exists in local government. So, volunteers certainly are helping, but, obviously, we will keep looking at how we can do more in that space.

Waiting Times for Treatment

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to tackle waiting times for treatment in north Wales? OQ58885

Eluned Morgan AC: I am pleased to see that the longest waiting times for treatment at Betsi Cadwaladr have fallen and are 21 per cent lower than they were in March 2022. As part of targeted intervention, they are receiving support from the planned care recovery and improvement team to ensure that they are able to plan their elective care effectively.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: A constituent has contacted me who is a dental nurse. She suffers with carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands. Clearly, that impacts her ability to work, but it also has an impact on her well-being and quality of life. She was told before the summer that she would have to wait 12 months for treatment, but only if it was an emergency. It was confirmed in September that it was an emergency but that the waiting time was now two years. Now, such is the pain and the impact that the condition has on her that she's now decided that she must access private treatment. To pay for that, she is having to sell her home, Minister. So, what's your message to people such as her, who are driven to the private sector and very often have to do that although they can't truly afford to? And aren't you ashamed that people are having to sell their homes to get treatment—[Inaudible.]

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Of course, I understand why people might feel that that is a system—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: —from the private sector that, of course, is supposed to be available to them on the NHS?

I think that Llyr Gruffydd froze there—not because of the weather, but because of technological problems. But I think that the Minister got the gist of the question. So, the Minister to respond.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. We understand that people are fed up in having to wait so long. Carpal tunnel syndrome is something that an orthopaedic surgeon has to be involved in. I think that it is important that we monitor how much work the orthopaedic surgeons do. It's very important that we continue with this work.
We had another meeting recently with the British specialist in orthopaedic surgery to ensure that people understand what the system is—what the best pathway is to get as many people through the system as quickly as possible. So, there is a job of work to do across Wales to improve the performance of what is already in place when it comes to orthopaedic surgery. So, I'm sure that, in Betsi Cadwaladr, they have heard that message clearly from me recently.

Sam Rowlands MS: I thank Llyr Gruffydd for raising this important point, which, of course, is a broader issue not just around carpal tunnel syndrome, but around the fact that many people who have paid their taxes or national insurance over many decades are unable to gain treatment in a reasonable, timely manner, as something that they have paid for, for many, many years. So, I wonder first of all, Minister, whether you think that that’s a fair situation for many of my constituents to be in, who have paid into the system for such a long time but cannot gain the treatment from the system when they need it. And also, in relation to private healthcare, I wonder if you could outline how you are working with the private health sector to utilise any capacity or capability and fund NHS patients who can access that care in a more timely manner. Thank you very much.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I think that what's really important is that we keep on remembering how many people are actually helped on a monthly basis. What's really interesting for me—. Obviously, I get a lot of people coming up to me and complaining about their waiting times. But I also get a lot of people coming up to me saying what an absolutely magnificent job the NHS is doing for them. And I would like to take this opportunity, just before Christmas, to thank NHS workers across Wales for the incredible work that they have done over the past year. It really has been a relentless year. We understand that it's difficult and, obviously, we thank them for all the work that they have done.
It's important to understand that there are people working flat out. There are also some spaces where, actually, we can improve performance, and the first thing for me is we've got to get the maximum capacity from the people we're already paying at the moment. So, obviously we are doing a certain amount in the private sector already, but, for me, I want to get my money's worth out of people we're already paying, and sometimes—it's interesting, isn't it—they haven't got a packed plan for the day that actually they should have. There may be good reasons for that, but then that's up to management to make sure that those systems are in place to ensure that people who have these incredible skills are able to do the job that they've been trained to do. So, that's why we have these very regular meetings now with surgeons, with health board executives, just to make sure they understand: this is the optimum pathway, why aren't you doing more day cases, why aren't you doing the longest waiters, as we've asked you to, first? And actually there's a long way to go on some of this stuff, and I think my job as a health Minister is to push them on what we have asked them to do and to deliver.

Question 6, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Apologies. Apologies.

It's all right.

It's Nadolig; I'm in a good mood.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, diolch, diolch, diolch. [Laughter.] Will the Minister—? Diolch yn fawr iawn. Christmas spirit.

Cancer Services Action Plan

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on the timetable for publishing the cancer services action plan? OQ58868

Eluned Morgan AC: I need the answer. [Laughter.] Thank you. I expect the cancer services action plan—the NHS’s response to our policy expectations set out in 'The quality statement for cancer'—to be published at the end of January in the run-up to World Cancer Day.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Minister will know that the cross-party group on cancer is currently carrying out an inquiry, particularly into the issues of deprivation and cancer. There seems to be a direct correlation, from all of the evidence that we've heard in two sessions, so there's clearly a great anticipation of driving forward on the cancer action plan. I wonder if she has any preliminary thoughts herself on the work that the CPG on cancer is undertaking currently, and that very question of not just bringing forward the action plan, but the issue of the impact of deprivation clearly on incidence of cancer, both in terms of diagnosis, treatment, care and the success of a successful life after cancer as well, and living with cancer.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Huw, and can I thank you for the work that you and the CPG are doing on this really important area? Because one of the key things that we are conscious of all of the time in relation to health is inequality. So, why is it that some people are getting very different treatment? And obviously there's a link with deprivation, and we need to make sure that we're addressing that. So, it's one of the key things that we keep on looking at.
There are factors where, actually, we need to make sure that we're getting the right messaging to avoid cancer. So, obviously, we need to make sure people are cutting down on smoking, they need to be eating the right kinds of food, they need to be doing exercise, and actually we've got to make sure that that deprivation link is broken. I know that my colleague Lynne Neagle's doing a huge amount of work in this space to make sure the healthy eating programme, for example, is very targeted at some of those areas of greatest deprivation, and there is a link—let's be clear, there is a link with cancer.
So, I'm pleased that we have the single cancer pathway and of course we also now have these rapid diagnostic centres around Wales.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, in the past couple of weeks I have repeated the need for you to outline to the Senedd the outcome of the cancer summit held more than a month ago, and described as unprecedented and significant, where a number of key actions were agreed to. What progress have you made in taking this agreement forward, and why has this Government failed to respond quickly to the clear urgency that was set out in that cancer summit? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Altaf. I think I've responded to a letter from you on this, so I'm surprised that you haven't received that yet, so I'll chase that up immediately after this. But I think what was important for some of the things that came out of that cancer summit meeting was the need to make sure we do a lot more straight to test, so you cut out some of the waiting time, because, obviously, the sooner you catch cancer, the less complicated it is and much easier it is to treat. So, there are some health boards that are in a really different place to others. One health board, for example, does about 37 per cent straight to test, and another does about 79 per cent. Highlighting those kinds of things in a summit meeting, making sure that everybody tries to work to best practice and that we're benchmarking is really important, I think. I think there's also an unacceptable variation in terms of tumour sites. As we've heard today, gynaecology is an area that needs a lot more attention, and there are other areas where, actually, we're doing much better, so why are we seeing that variation? So, those are some of the questions that we've asked them to focus on.
Also, I think we've got a lot more to do in terms of making sure that we use digital technology as much as we can, but also that we think about what the future might look like. There are real developments now in terms of cancer in relation to, for example, liquid biopsy tests, and we need to make sure that we're on the right page and ready for those when that development really is mature enough for us to use.

Ambulance Services

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the adequacy of ambulance services in Dwyfor Meirionnydd? OQ58884

Eluned Morgan AC: Ambulance response time performance is not where we, the NHS or the public would like it to be. We have a national ambulance improvement plan in place, supported by over £3 millionof Welsh Government funding. This features national and local actions to support improvement, including in Dwyfor Meirionnydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response, and I was pleased to hear the Minister speaking earlier thanking health sector workers, but words and claps don't pay bills; you need to discuss with unions in terms of wage levels. But that aside for the time being, the stories of patients waiting hours for ambulances are far too common, I'm afraid. I can point to the case of a 78-year-old woman having to wait 18 hours for an ambulance with a dislocated hip; in another case, an 88-year-old woman suffering from dementia had to wait 11 hours with a broken hip.
But even more concerning is that I understand that the ambulance service, in response to this crisis, intends to transform the provision and service, and rather than aiming to treat patients 80 per cent of the time, they will instead aim to treat and transport patients 20 per cent of the time. So, that raises concerns in terms of what the ambulance service's priority is with this reorganisation—is it to be on the telephone or treating patients?
But even more concerning is that ambulances in Meirionnydd spend most of their time in the north-east of Wales on calls, because of the deficiencies there. So, what will you do to ensure that ambulances in Meirionnydd remain to treat patients in Meirionnydd, rather than having to travel far and wide to treat patients in other regions, leaving major parts of my constituency without coverage?

Eluned Morgan AC: I think there are different models that are appropriate to different areas of Wales. So, one of the things that I saw when I visited Hwb Iechyd Eifionydd was very good work by paramedics. So, what they did was to send local paramedics in—advanced paramedics—and they could help very many patients, which meant that they then didn't need to go hospital. So, the most important thing for me is that we transport only those people who truly need to be taken to hospital, and that's why we have seen a difference. We've seen fewer people taken to hospital, and that's a good thing. Generally speaking, what people need is help in the community. Clearly, if they are in a serious condition, they will need to be transported to hospital. But what's importantis that we provide care, where possible, in the community, but there is also provision available to take them to the nearest appropriate centre. I understand that that can occasionally mean that ambulances will be a long way away from Meirionnydd, and that's why we do have new rosters, which do mean that the equivalent of 72 additional people working in the ambulance service are available, on top of the 100 additional staff because of the way that we have redesigned where ambulances are located.

Finally, question 8, Adam Price.

Waiting Times

Adam Price AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve A&E wait times and ambulance response times for people living in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr? OQ58876

Eluned Morgan AC: The steps taken to reduce waiting time in A&E and to reduce ambulance response times include creating more ambulance capacity, delivering clinical streaming services, using virtual ward models and enhancement of same-day emergency care services.

Adam Price AC: I have heard of a number of cases similar to those expressed by Mabon ap Gwynfor in my region: one constituent waiting over 17 hours outside of A&E in an ambulance with stroke symptoms; another disabled constituent waiting for 12 hours outside of the A&E department for a bed after a fall; and even one man travelling back and forth to A&E to provide blankets and food for his elderly mother because she had to wait in a chair overnight.
In terms of the bigger picture, the situation in terms of response times in Hywel Dda is amongst the worst in Wales. In October, only 39.3 per cent of red calls were answered within the eight minutes. Six months ago, when I raised the same issue with you, you said that you didn't accept that there's an emergency or a crisis. Have you changed your mind now? And in terms of what's going to happen on 21 December in terms of the strike, do you expect or will you ask members of the armed forces or the police to step into the breach because of the strike action?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I'm sure that Adam Price will have understood by now that part of the problem in getting people into the hospital is that we can't get them out. So, there are over 1,000 people in our hospitals who shouldn't be there. Part of the problem is because people can't be recruited in local government to work in the care services. So, that inter-relationship is something that everyone needs to understand, and that's why our priority, in our health and care team, the No. 1 priority, was to ensure that we pay the real living wage, and, for me, that's the most important thing in helping with recruitment. And as I've already said, there will be a further announcement as to what we have been doing in this area to work with local government, over many months, to help with that patient flow in getting people into our hospitals, because every bed is taken up, and that, of course, is a problem.
In terms of the strike action on the twenty-first, of course we are still making preparations for that. We will look at how things are going to work tomorrow; a great deal of preparation's been done already. At the moment, we don't intend to use the armed forces, unless that is truly necessary, unless there is a situation that would mean that there would be a serious problem in keeping the public safe. But we have been speaking, for example, to the police in terms of the police helping with resuscitation and so on. So, preparation has been done with the police also.

I thank the Minister for those responses during that question session.

3. Topical Questions

There is also a topical question for you, Minister. That question is to be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Antibiotics Shortage

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 1. What steps is the Government taking to tackle the antibiotics shortage over the Christmas period? TQ699

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. We are working closely with the UK Government, the makers and wholesalers in order to hasten the movement of additional stock in the supply chain as a result of the significant increase in demand. We are also working with health boards and community pharmacists to ensure that stock is available for distribution where demand is highest.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for the response. A large number of parents and pharmacists have approached me over the past few days concerned that they're unable to source penicillin, amoxicillin, clarithromycin, and erythromycin. Pharmacists are unable to give liquid antibiotics to children, as they're not available, and they have to show carers or parents how to open the capsules and then mix the powder with another liquid in order for children to receive the medication. On top of this, the cost of purchasing in these drugs has increased hugely from £1 or £2, in some cases, to £8 or £10. Now, scarlet fever season has started earlier than usual, and people are naturally concerned about group A streptococcus. It concerns me, therefore, that the message from the Government over the past few weeks has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the seriousness of the situation. The people of Wales need assurance that basic medicines will be available when the need arises, without having to travel long distances, sometimes 30 miles or more, or wait weeks to access these medicines. So, will you give us that reassurance, and will you urge the manufacturers not to take advantage of this crisis by raising their prices?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Well, I absolutely understand the concern of parents in these very difficult times. When your child is ill and you know that there's a potential that they could get invasive strep A, then you understand why we've seen a huge increase in contact numbers. I think we had 18,000 calls on the weekend, and 54 per cent of the call activity on Sunday related to children who were under 14. So, we have got a multi-agency incident management team in place. There has, as you said, been a surge in demand for antibiotics, which did lead to a temporary disruption in supply. We are working with the UK Government to speed up the movement of additional stock into supply chains, and we've issued guidance on alternative antibiotic choices and on the administration of tablets and capsules to children where penicillin and liquid antibiotics are unavailable. Also, we've given advice on how solid dosage can be given to people who have swallowing difficulties where there is a shortage of liquid medicine. So, we are giving that advice, that advice has gone out, and, obviously, if there are alternatives, as there are, then we need to keep an eye on that in terms of the price of the antibiotics.

Thank you, Minister. The next topical question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, and is to be asked by Joel James.

Welsh Fire and Rescue Services

Joel James MS: 2. What action is the Welsh Government proposing to ensure more rigorous employment standards in Welsh fire and rescue services in light of the allegations against South Wales Fire and Rescue Service? TQ700

Hannah Blythyn AC: These allegations reveal appalling and completely unacceptable behaviour that has no place in the fire and rescue service, nor anywhere else. South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority has already announced a review of its own processes and culture. This needs to be truly independent, robust, and comprehensive.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. The ITV Wales news story on Monday evening reported that south Wales fire service has had at least two individuals who have fallen short of the exemplary standards promoted by the fire and rescue service. I think we can all agree that their abhorrent behaviour should never, ever be tolerated, and I would like to add my voice to acknowledge the bravery of the victims in coming forward to highlight this and what has happened to them.
The coverage also alleged that south Wales fire service has a culture of cover-up, and these individuals had not been permanently removed from their posts when the incidents first came to light. Instead, they were transferred elsewhere, including to a White Ribbon station. I believe it is true to say that almost every organisation, company or institution will undoubtedly at some point have to deal with staff, or several staff, who fall appallingly short of meeting the values and conduct that are expected of them. These individuals, both who commit acts and those who cover them up, not only do tremendous damage to their victims, but leave long-lasting consequences for their company and co-workers.
I'm conscious that, as you say, the fire service has now launched an independent review of the culture, discipline process, and of any historic cases. But I'm also conscious that full details were not provided of these cases in the coverage, and this might be a case of a failure of proper procedure, rather than a failure of culture in the service. With this in mind, and given what has happened, Deputy Minister, will you outline what discussions you have had with the fire service on this matter? Is it not time that active service personnel undertake regular and continual vetting procedures, similar to those they went through when they were applying for the role, to ensure that the standards expected of them can be maintained throughout their careers? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Joel James for raising this today? It's right that we have an opportunity to address this on the floor of this Senedd, and I absolutely agree with him that the allegations that were brought to light in the ITV news report were absolutely abhorrent, but you're right that it shouldn't take a news report for action to be taken on these issues as well. You talked about the bravery of the women that have come forward. That is not an easy thing to do. It's a significant step to take. But that shouldn't be a necessary step to take. That behaviour shouldn't exist in the first place, but the support should be there within those organisations to enable people to feel safe and to come forward without fear of repercussions from that.
Actually, I had an urgent meeting with the chair of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority yesterday morning, and made it very clear to him the need for a fully independent and wide-ranging inquiry into these matters. It should be similar to the one that the London Fire Commissioner established to investigate claims of racist bullying, which reported last month. On the points the Member made, I particularly stressed to the chair that this inquiry needs to be headed up by a trusted figure who's wholly independent of the fire and rescue services, such as a barrister, and that its scope must encompass all forms of discrimination, harassment, unacceptable behaviours and cultures. It must be free to inspect any documents and to survey or interview staff, and that its findings must be made public. It cannot be addressed as an isolated incident; it needs to look at the structures that have allowed that to happen and what action needs to be taken to ensure it isn't repeated in the future. I've asked the chair for urgent assurance on these matters, and I'm happy to keep this place updated on that.
I think, in closing to Joel James, what is clear is that we need zero tolerance, not only of this sort of behaviour, but also of cultures and institutions that allow people to be bystanders as well.

Joyce Watson AC: The White Ribbon pledge is never to commit, excuse or remain silent about men's violence against women. When the service allowed two abusers to keep their jobs, it broke that promise. Llywydd, I want to pay tribute to the brave women who have spoken out, and my deep disappointment in the service that I've worked closely with on the White Ribbon campaign for many years. We'll see what the investigation finds, but clearly something has gone very wrong here.
First, Gwent Police; now south Wales fire service. Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that people have every right to expect zero tolerance of gender-based violence in all their public services? And what is being done within public sector organisations to identify and deal with offenders? Will you please table a debate on this, with your colleague Jane Hutt, for a workplace strategy based on dignity and respect, because according to the report, any level of either dignity or respect had been completely removed from the females who were employed in this organisation?
I know that, with Jane Hutt, I'm launching a report that will move into this space in January, with the Wales Trades Union Congress. I think it would be an excellent idea if all public sector organisations sent some heads of departments to that launch, so that they could at least learn something and hopefully take that learning back to the workplace. This is an absolute disgrace. It's let people down, and if half or a fraction of what was in that report is to be believed, it is absolutely beyond comprehension.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I absolutely share—well, actually, to say that I share Joyce Watson's disappointment is probably an understatement. The Member raises some really salient points about what I and Jane Hutt and you can do moving forward now, and I'm more than happy to take that up with regard to the debate and actually how we bring people together. You talked about the White Ribbon campaign and your disappointment that they've broken that pledge. In 2014, we were incredibly proud that the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service became the first fire and rescue service in the world to get White Ribbon accreditation, and only last year they declared their 47 fire stations in the region to be safe havens. Now, we've seen that that accreditation has been removed following the publication of these allegations, but I think what it does tell us is that a corporate commitment to this isn't enough; it needs whole-scale cultural change and practices and processes in place that support and enable that as well. You talked about other services, and I think what's clear to me and everybody in here is that we've heard time and time again about bad apples—that 'bad apples' narrative—and it doesn't and it cannot wash. Enough is really enough.

Sioned Williams MS: Gender-based abuse and prejudice and hatred towards women in our front-line services are totally unacceptable. These are the services that are supposed to protect us and serve the public, and they are therefore supposed to represent the very best principles in our society. So, we cannot permit a service that has such close contact with the public and that has such a safeguarding role to hold such stereotypical, prejudiced and dangerous views about specific groups in our society, especially as there is increasing evidence that people who hold such prejudiced views act upon them too. The public and these specific groups in particular must have faith in these services—as citizens, as colleagues, and as representatives of the values of our society. The fact that the fire service is no longer listed as a White Ribbon supporter organisation on the White Ribbon website is shocking when you really think about it, that our fire service—or one of our fire services—has had to distance itself from a campaign that seeks to eradicate violence against women by men.
Joyce Watson spoke about the concerning cases in Gwent Police recently. In the wake of those cases, does the Deputy Minister believe that, perhaps, there should not just be an inquiry into these specific cases and this specific service, but perhaps that we need a wider ranging inquiry into the culture and processes of our front-line public services? Could the Deputy Minister perhaps please outline how the most recent violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy will help to prevent situations like this from recurring in our public services? And what do you believe is going wrong here?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I agree with Sioned Williams.

Hannah Blythyn AC: And with the points you raise in terms of—I don't think we can downplay just how shocking this is, but alas, for many of us here, sadly, it's not surprising because we know this sort of behaviour is endemic, not just in workplaces but across society. We've talked before, when we've talked about everyday sexism, misogyny, that it's not all men, but you can probably guarantee that just about all women have experienced some sort of harassment, been on the receiving end of misogyny, or just been made to feel uncomfortable in a place where they should feel safe. So, I think, like I said before, enough is enough. We're at a point now where it cannot continue.
And just in respect of what you said about the fire and rescue service, we're waiting to see the terms of the investigation that the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority have pledged to undertake, but prior to that, as we've said, we know there are wider problems within the fire and rescue service. There was an independent review of the London Fire Brigade published just last month, which revealed numerous shocking and disgusting instances of racial and sexual harassment, so we can't be sure that they are confined just to one service. Ahead of the ITV news broadcast on Monday evening, I had written to the three fire and rescue authorities in Wales asking for assurances around how they had approached these issues on the back of the London Fire Brigade report. We'll go through the process now of working with South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority in terms of what the parameters of that inquiry will look like, going back to what I said in response to the first question about making sure that it is truly independent and that it doesn't just look at individual allegations, but looks at wholesale culture and process and the support that is in place there. But if that isn't forthcoming, we will consider undertaking such a wholesale review ourselves.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

We move now to the 90-second statements and the first is from Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. This Sunday marks the beginning of the Jewish festival of Hanukkah, also known as Chanukah. Hanukkah is an eight-day festival of light and is a hugely joyous occasion for the Jewish community all across the world. Hanukkah involves lighting candles on a special nine-branch candle holder known as the menorah. A candle is lit each day and a lit menorah is placed near a doorway or window to announce the miracle of the festival to the outside world. It is a time for families to come together to eat, sing traditional songs and give gifts to children. It's also customary to play with a dreidel—a four-sided spinning top—stating, 'A great miracle happened there'. The game is often played for coins, nuts and other things. As we await the start of the festival, I would like to celebrate proudly the great contribution that our Jewish communities have made to our country.
At a time of growing antisemitism across Europe, the themes of freedom and liberty that lie at the heart of the story of Hanukkah are as relevant as ever. Some of the common messages that come out are, 'Never be afraid to stand up for what is right', 'A little light goes a long way', or 'Be like a menorah and shine bright and observe your faith with pride'. We in the Senedd must strongly advocate the right of people to practise their faith without fear of violence and commit ourselves to fight the extremist ideology and prejudice that lies at the heart of antisemitism. So, at this special time of the year, as Jewish families come together to celebrate, let us be inspired by the message of hope Hanukkah brings, confident that hatred will be overcome and that light will always replace darkness.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: There were almost 50,000 knife-enabled crimes recorded in the year ending June 2022. Sadly, one of those victims was my constituent Jake Pickstock, who, on 21 August 2021, and through no fault of his own, found himself with his head and neck slashed open and left fighting for his life at a nightclub in Llandudno. He required 62 stitches and he almost died twice. Jake is a lovely young man of just 25. He has moved on and is now a successful businessman, but he is determined that from that very negative issue, a positive must come out. The young perpetrator himself was only 19 and is now facing 10 and a half years.
Jake and I have been working together over the past 12 months and we've founded Operation Pickstock to raise awareness of knife crime amongst the younger generation at night-time and throughout our local community. This campaign is seen in pubs and clubs across Llandudno displaying the posters, Llew Jones and Arriva Buses Wales are displaying posters on their buses, Conwy council are arranging for posters to be in taxis, and Transport for Wales are committing to display posters at stations. There's going to be training for pub staff, free metal detector wands, and we've arranged for a knife amnesty bin to be placed at Llandudno.
Lifelong damage in just 40 seconds—now that's a scary thought. Carrying a knife can bring about such tragic consequences. Jake Pickstock and I want to do what we can to make sure that anyone stops and thinks before going out, 'Never carry a knife'. What happened in Llandudno and to Jake could happen to anybody. When you go home to your constituencies, I hope you will remember the Operation Pickstock campaign, and try and spread this message. So many lives, including the families of both the perpetrator and, in particular, Jake Pickstock, the victim, were damaged by the consequences of a split-second decision. If that young man hadn't been carrying a knife, he couldn't have used a knife. Thank you; diolch.

I thank both Members.

5. Statement by Peter Fox: Introduction of a Member Proposed Bill: Food (Wales) Bill

Item 5 today is a statement by Peter Fox on the introduction of a Member Bill, the Food (Wales) Bill. I call on Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I first of all remind Members of my declaration of interest as a farmer? It is an absolute pleasure to introduce the Food (Wales) Bill to the Chamber this afternoon—the first Member Bill of the sixth Senedd. Around 13 months ago, I was given the opportunity by you all to present an outline of the Bill, based on the principle that we need to get more locally produced food into our homes, our communities and our public services. But when discussing my ideas with stakeholders, it turned out that much more work was needed to ensure that the food system works for not just our producers, but our communities as well. And so, the Bill as drafted today has been expanded far beyond what I originally envisaged. I felt that it was important that we grasped this opportunity to strengthen the Welsh food system as a whole, to establish a more sustainable food system in Wales, to strengthen food security, improve Wales's socioeconomic well-being, and to enhance consumer choice.
These are the broad principles that have underpinned the provision and policy objectives of the food Bill. To achieve this, the Bill provides a framework that enables a coherent, consistent and strategic cross-governmental approach to policy and practice on all aspects of the food system. To inform this process, I have held a wide range of consultation—from policy round-tables to scope the initial approach of the Bill, I've had regular engagement with policy experts to discuss technical aspects, as well as a public consultation, which I launched at the Royal Welsh Show. That went over the summer, and we've received over 50 high-quality responses to the consultation. What this uncovered was strong support for the general principles of the Bill and its provisions. Over 75 per cent of respondents agreed that we need to see this Bill on the statute book.
Deputy Llywydd, the amount of work that has gone into producing the Bill, and the explanatory memorandum, has been immense, and I could not have done this without the expert support and friendship offered to me by the Commission Bill team, who have been drawn from across the Senedd Commission, as well as thanks to the external counsel. They have put a tremendous and immense effort in, from day one, to transform my ideas into reality, and to guide me through this process. I'm ever so thankful, and I have to praise the quality of the staff in the Commission—they have been outstanding. I also wanted to say a special thanks to my own support staff, particularly Tyler Walsh, who has been absolutely fundamental in helping me achieve this to date, and also Tom Povey, who has been invaluable throughout this process. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank every organisation, policy expert, and members of the public, from across the UK, that have helped us to shape the Bill. Your continued support is very much appreciated.
Deputy Llywydd, I would now like to turn to the Bill itself, and will broadly set out what each section does and why. We start with food goals. They provide a mechanism to ensure that the Bill achieves its key policy objective, or the primary food goal—that is, to deliver affordable, healthy and economically, environmentally and socially sustainable food for the people now and for future generations. This is supported by a range of secondary food goals that cover things like health, social and economic well-being, environment and biodiversity, and, of course, food waste. The Bill places a duty on public bodies to take reasonable steps to advance the primary food goal and the secondary food goals, such as through the national food strategy and local food plans. There is also a requirement on Welsh Ministers to consolidate existing targets, as well as to establish additional targets on how to meet the food goals. The reason for this provision is to establish a consistent direction of travel for the Welsh food system, as well as increasing accountability within it. During consultation, it was made clear that there is a lack of coherent approach to Welsh food policy, as well as within the wider food system. Sixty-three per cent of respondents to the consultation on the draft Bill believed that the Welsh Government food-related strategies are not joined up enough. And whilst there are a number of plans in place, many of these lack scrutiny and accountability mechanisms.

Peter Fox AS: Back in 2010, the Welsh Government's 'Food for Wales' strategy, which I know the Llywydd will know rather well, made welcome progress in establishing a more holistic approach to food policy. But it lacked systems of targets and data collection to measure what progress was made. After this, successive strategies, such as the 2014 action plan and the 2021 vision for the food and drink industry, have moved the focus towards economic growth and promoting exports, as opposed to using the food system to address wider social issues. So, the food goals reflect what the previous environment committee argued for in their report, 'Rethinking food in Wales'—that is for a strategy that reflects a whole-system approach. To translate the food goals into policy, the Welsh Government would be expected to produce a national food strategy, whilst some public bodies, such as councils and health boards, will be required to produce local food plans. It is expected that the local plans will reinforce the objectives of the national strategy. These will draw together existing policies and promote innovation at a national and local level. They will also ensure consistency in policy too.
Food Policy Alliance Cymru have pointed out a number of examples where food policy in Wales has been somewhat inconsistent, such as missed opportunities to connect Welsh Government's food and drink retail plan with the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, and the minimum alcohol pricing policy versus the Government's drink strategy. These plans will also boost the food and drink sector in Wales by strengthening the resilience of local supply chains. It will create new economic opportunities within communities, by ensuring that public bodies increase their procurement of locally produced food, and improve the local environment by focusing on the production of more sustainable produce.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the final main aspect of the Bill is the creation of a Welsh food commission, made up of a board and chair. It is intended that members will be drawn from across the food system. The commission will reset the governance of the food system in Wales, and will co-create and oversee the delivery of a national food strategy, alongside Welsh Ministers and other stakeholders. It will hold delivery partners to account, to ensure that food goal targets and policy aims are met. The commission can also use its role to build policy expertise and capacity within Wales.
There has been some discussion that, actually, a commission is not needed and that instead the future generations commissioner can look at food as part of their remit. I put on record my thanks to the support of the future generations commissioner through this process. But the commissioner is already under significant time and resource pressure, meaning they would require more resource to do so, which could be better directed to a body that has the capability and expertise to take a whole-system approach to food policy. The Bill also provides Welsh Ministers with the flexibility to set up and fund the commission within the framework set out within the Bill, meaning the Government can direct how much resource it feels necessary to fund the commission. The explanatory memorandum sets out some of the existing commissioners and their budgets to give the range of potential budgetary costs.
In summary, Dirprwy Lywydd, I have today set out some of the main features of the Bill, and the rationale behind them. This statement starts a long process of Senedd scrutiny, and I am very much looking forward to discussing the proposals in detail, although I do hope that Members will be kind to me, as I enter those committee rooms with some level of trepidation. Of course, I am also very keen to continue my constructive engagement with Members and the Minister, and her officials in particular, and I do thank the Minister for our discussions to date. I know that the Minister understands and agrees with the principles behind the Bill. Whilst I know that there are aspects of the provisions that she feels could be changed, I really do think there is an opportunity for us to all work together to find a way to pass this Bill. I really believe that there is no need for any politics or anything like that to get in the way of delivering this Bill for the people of Wales. I am open to ideas and am willing to find a way forward over the next few months. I'm happy to let this Bill be the Senedd's Bill, and for us to collectively, together, make it happen, because the food system is inherent to the fabric of our communities and everything we do. We know that it can and must do more to support well-being and prosperity. So, let's make this a reality. Deputy Llywydd, I commend the statement and the Food (Wales) Bill to the Senedd.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to Peter Fox for his statement, and for the conversations that we've had over a period of time, leading up to today.
I still firmly believe that this Bill is the wrong Bill, at the wrong time. Wales's Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 already provides us with a framework and a foundation for holistic integrated policies focused on the long-term gain for citizens and society. The Welsh Government has a strong track record of partnership working, with proven mechanisms for joined-up policy and action. I do agree that we need a joined-up approach to food matters that focuses effort on well-being. The Welsh Government is already working on that through our existing policies, and with the commitment to develop a community food strategy, which empowers community-led action, strengthens communities and brings multiple well-being benefits, and I'm working with Plaid Cymru on this issue as part of the co-operation agreement.
This Bill will not add value, but will distract, create unnecessary cost and complexity, and ultimately, will not contribute to its own very-well-intended cause. It will delay our work on community food, and, as I've said, I believe that it is the wrong Bill. The Government will underline these points as the Bill progresses, but, for today, I would like to ask the Member two questions: how will the resource-consuming bureaucracy created by the Bill actually make a difference? And in what way does the Bill help, rather than hinder, the legislative framework already put in place by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? Diolch.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for your response. I do still respectfully disagree with you; I think there is a need for this, as respondents who have responded from all over the country—from health boards, from councils—say that there is a need for this, because there is a lack of joined-up policy in this regard. Whilst there are many good things coming forward, like the agriculture Bill and the sustainable farming scheme, they look at the producer, the production in the main; they don't take a holistic approach at how we use food in the best way to address societal issues. I know that the community food strategy is being developed, but it's very unclear what that contains, and we believe that it probably contains more around local initiatives to produce local amounts of food, but it wouldn't provide something that probably could be scaled enough to drive what I'm proposing through this Bill.
Responding to your questions, the resources, as you'll know, in the explanatory memorandum, have been based—and there's a range of costs that they could fall within. Obviously, we need to—. Because it's a framework Bill, the discretion of what the actual costs of that are would be in the hands of the Government, in many ways. We believe that—I believe that—this Bill will give an opportunity to rationalise the food system and the regulatory framework that we have now, which will actually unlock efficiencies, and actually enable us to deliver valuable resources into other areas. I do not believe that the future generations commissioner has the capacity, nor do her food goals reflect the breadth of what we're trying to do with this Bill. The food goals we've created in this Bill synergise with the good work of the future generations commissioner, but to ask the commissioner to take on such a broad task as big as the food system is in Wales, on top of the things that she's already doing would be a big ask and it would take the commissioner's focus away from the important task they have of holding local government, other bodies and the Government to account in the areas currently looked at. So, whatever, you would have to put more resources into the future generations commission to be able to deal with the food system if you were serious about actually trying to deliver on that holistic approach for the food system. So, there is a cost, whichever way, if we're going to secure food security and make a holistic food system.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Firstly, can I congratulate the Member for Monmouth on introducing such a vital piece of legislation? As the Member has rightly highlighted in his opening statement, the Food (Wales) Bill does not just provide a foundational framework to establish a more sustainable food system in Wales, but as we've heard this afternoon it strengthens our food security, improves Wales's socioeconomic well-being and enhances consumer choices, far beyond what currently exists within the statute books. Therefore, I believe that it is the right Bill at the right time.
This piece of legislation comes at an incredible important time, not just for the agricultural industry but for the wider supply chain too. From gate to plate, field to fork, this will ensure that everyone has equal access to healthy locally sourced produce—an opportunity that not only supports our agricultural communities but sets them on a path to sustainable growth. But, in order to do this, we must use every tool in our toolbox, from utilising the framework within the agriculture Bill to developing the sustainable farming scheme. This food Bill can be the missing jigsaw piece that completes a series of measures that protect, promote and provide for the agricultural community.
Having been on the committee scrutinising the agriculture Bill, I can assure Members that there is no duplication between these two Bills. Rather, they complement each other in a reassuring way. The sustainable farming scheme lays out post-Brexit agricultural support, the agriculture Bill provides a framework in which the industry can be safeguarded, and the Member for Monmouth's food Bill delivers the provision of affordable, healthy and economically, environmentally and socially sustainable food for the people of Wales. Basically, it ticks all the boxes that we're looking to get ticked when feeding our nation. These three parts—the SFS, agriculture Bill and the food Bill—are a ménage à trois of policy positively intertwined for productivity, procurement and prosperity. So, given this, I would be interested if the Member could further explain how his legislation will seek to supplement the four key sustainable land management objectives within the agriculture Bill.
Shifting my focus elsewhere, I was pleased to note how much industry support is there for the food Bill, which has been garnered by stakeholders. The Member's work—be that policy round-tables, regular engagement with policy experts or public consultation, which he mentioned in his opening remarks—has meant that this Bill has incorporated the support of all key stakeholders. This engagement has been most welcome. Following on from the discussions I've had with the industry, I would be interested to hear from the Member on how any potential concerns to the Bill have been alleviated within its drafting.
Lastly, from listening to the Minister's opposition to the Bill, it's clear that there remains some concern around the overlap between what Peter has proposed and the Welsh Government's community food strategy. However, I do not draw the same conclusion as the Minister, so I would be interested in learning more about the Member's views on the matter and whether you believe both frameworks are at odds with one another.
Therefore, in conclusion, the principles, provision and policy objectives that you have outlined will not just enable a coherent, consistent and strategic policy platform on which we can legislate to enhance our food security, but you and your team have developed a framework that will enhance, strengthen and support our food system, making it fit for the challenges of the twenty-first century. It is with that that I commend the Member for Monmouth for his diligence and dedication in drafting this Bill, and I urge Members in this Siambr to support this groundbreaking piece of legislation. Diolch.

Peter Fox AS: Well, can I thank you, Samuel, and can I also wish you a happy birthday today?
There is no conflict to the agriculture Bill here; my Bill creates that overarching framework where the current regulatory policy can hang under. The primary food goals and the secondary food goals enable all policy areas to contribute towards the wider aim. There is no conflict with the agriculture Bill, indeed, it can help by focusing all parts of the policy and those who interface with the policy, it can help them to come together. There were some concerns raised within the drafting of the Bill, and many people would have liked us to put more on the face of the Bill, but that is really, really difficult; every man and his dog would have liked to have had something within the Bill, it was that popular. But it was important to me to keep this as simple as possible, but what we did do was try to address some of those deeper concerns throughout the explanatory memorandum. There were issues of whether this had gone far enough with its environmental status, if you like, and we believe that we've addressed those in the explanatory memorandum, because sustainable food production that respects biodiversity and our countryside is in the DNA of this, of what we're trying to do.
I can't remember your last question. It was about—I can't remember what it was. [Laughter.] It was about compatibility—

Peter, the Member asked you to reassert your position against the Minister's position.

Peter Fox AS: My position against the Minister's? Oh, yes. Right, okay. Thank you for that, Deputy Llywydd, for reminding—[Interruption.]
I think I've captured it in some of what I said before. I believe that this is creating that overarching framework where there is a national strategy, where people can be held to account for delivering against those food targets and those food goals. At the moment, the various policies don't always get adhered to in the way that I'm sure the Government would like. So, there, you'll see some bodies delivering policy in the way it was intended, others interpreting it in a different way, so you have a lack of consistency in policy delivery across the piece. And when you have that, you have the lack of tangible data that you can use to actually influence how and where you need to change the food system, or address deficits in the food system across Wales. So, I think I've covered it.

I'm sure that the Member spoke for all Members in the Chamber when he wished the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire best wishes for his birthday. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. And congratulations to Peter Fox for succeeding to bring this Bill this far, and I'd like to take a moment to express my general support for this Bill.
The COVID-19 pandemic and ongoing Russian war on Ukraine has demonstrated how sensitive food supply chains and agricultural commodities can be to global events, serving as a stark reminder of the dangers of relying on imports of food and raw materials. The pandemic ultimately had the effect of highlighting the issues surrounding the interconnectedness and the interdependence of Welsh, UK and international agri-food supply chains. It's Plaid policy that we want to see a Wales where we have an increasingly localised food system—a sustainable system backed up by a robust and financially supported agricultural sector.
Plaid Cymru wants to see a Wales where everyone has dignified access to nutritious and sustainably produced food, in a way that secures a fair income for farmers and all food sector workers. We know what needs to happen to achieve this; we need a systematic approach that addresses the severe deficiencies in our current food sector. We need to see an increase in Welsh processing capacity across the board, and to reverse the loss of local processing capacity. In public procurement, we should prioritise the purchase of Welsh-produced food. Local and regional public procurement—for example in schools, hospitals and council offices—can help create markets for local food businesses.
Further to this, and I'm sure Peter Fox will lend his support to this aim, we want to see Monmouthshire build on its reputation as the food capital of Wales. Despite the fact that the country is rich in food and drink production, we still import massive amounts of food, and we waste massive amounts of food too. The food system we have isn't sustainable economically, environmentally and culturally.
Further to this, despite the levels of food production in Wales, broadly speaking, we have extensive food poverty, and disadvantaged areas in Wales are affected disproportionately by health conditions that can largely be attributed to diet. This Bill must ensure that healthy eating is encouraged by monitoring access to healthy food in the most deprived communities and ensuring that the food system is joined up with other sectors, for instance, by ensuring cookery is on the curriculum and that this includes local ingredients and healthy local recipes. Additionally, in light of the welcome introduction of free school meals for all primary school children, it would be appropriate that a food system brought about by this Bill would ensure that food and its production would be embedded in the life of our schools, with contracts procured locally whenever possible so that children should learn where their food comes from and develop the habit of eating nutritious, locally produced food early in life, meaning they'll be healthier, with benefit for the economy and the environment.
The Welsh Government has a significant role to play in changing food culture in Wales, and this Bill should be an opportunity to do so. One area where this clearly needs to happen is in our fisheries, seafood and aquaculture sector. Wales's fisheries, seafood and aquaculture sectors have an opportunity to develop and to contribute to the ambition for Wales to be at the forefront of sustainable food production. Wales is surrounded by coastline and our seas are rich with produce, produce that could feed the nation sustainably, but, at present, the sector is struggling. It lacks support and consumers aren't taking full advantage of the delicious and nutritious bounty of our seas. To develop our coastal communities, where the majority of our population actually live and work, we need to change our attitude towards Welsh seafood, support its production and build sustainable local seafood supply chains.
I support this Bill for the many reasons I have mentioned, and I'd encourage all parties in the Senedd to do so too while ensuring that we work collaboratively, feeding into this process to ensure that we can create a food system that works for Wales and all of our communities. Diolch.

Peter, I don't think I heard aquestion in the Member's contribution, so if you want to respond to the Member.

Peter Fox AS: Yes. I do thank you, Mabon, for your input, and you captured the essence of what this Bill is about perfectly, and I thank you for articulating it so well. It's not just about the production of sustainable food, it's about creating a sustainable industry, it's about using the quality local food to address those societal needs. We've got to start moving away from looking at everything in a financial currency and start thinking of it in a social currency. How do we start invoking change in the health system so we address obesity and things like diabetes? How do we do that? Well, of course, as Mabon said, we have to start helping people understand and children understand the benefits of quality food and how we can use it. That's why it's so important that our education system responds to that aim and that goal. If we can help people start understanding the benefits of food, they might change their food habits.
These processes are long, but you have to start somewhere, and that's the importance of a holistic approach that looks at the whole food system, not at little bits in isolation and hope that they join together in the end. You have to have this holistic picture. That's why it's so important to have that overarching strategy and a commission with the key people to sit on it who would be from all sectors of the food system and how it would work.
And Mabon, you were absolutely right about aquaculture and the opportunities for seafood to enter into our local food system. There are huge opportunities if we exploit the riches we have within our midst and strive to use more locally produced and carbon-reduced food, because we would be able to reduce the mileage that our food travels. So, there is huge opportunity. Can I thank you for your support?

Natasha Asghar AS: Firstly, I'd like to thank my very well-respected colleague Peter Fox for his statement today, as well as put on record my thanks to him and his team for all of their effort in drafting the Bill before us today.
Now, as the regional Member for South Wales East, I represent just a little over 650,000 people and, having met hundreds of them over the past few weeks, I can assure you, having spoken to them about this Bill, they do believe it's the right time, the right place and the right moment for this Bill to progress. So, Peter, they are all 100 per cent behind you.
Without a doubt, food is fundamental to everything we do as a society, and we really need to assess whether the governance structure that we have in place is adequate for the challenges that we face not only today, but in the future as well. From my understanding of the Bill, this is something that the proposed food commission will seek to address, and I think it's a really interesting idea. However, I know that there have been some suggestions that this doesn't need to be another body and that perhaps existing structures, such as the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, could cover the food system within their remit as well. So, Peter, could I ask why you believe a food commission is, in fact, needed, and what value do you think it will add to the governance of the food system? I know you touched upon it before, but I'd be really appreciative of a bit more information. Thank you.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Natasha, and thank you for your support through this. Indeed, thank you to so many of you for your support through this. I think I did cover some of this earlier. I think it's absolutely fundamental that a commission—and not a commissioner, a commission—oversees the food system and its evolvement, not as a threat to Government, but working closely with Government, and probably on it. It's a framework Bill and we would leave it to the Ministers to decide the actual shape of that. But they can help and work closely with the Government in pulling forward a strategy, that holistic strategy I talked about. They can work closely with public bodies to develop their food plans, and then they can also take a role in monitoring and holding to account, where needs be, where the targets aren't being met. And I think that is fundamental. This can actually take pressure away from the Government in many ways, because it's a critical friend, a body that can actually do the hard work that is needed to make us have a resilient, sustainable food system, which we currently, sadly, haven't got. But I think, for all of the things we've seen over recent years—COVID, Ukraine—all of those things have focused our eyes on how vulnerable we are, and how vulnerable our food system is, and that's why it's important that we have this root and branch, holistic look. And I don't only think a commission is the right way to do that. However, as I said in my opening statement, I'm willing to work with anybody in this Chamber and, indeed, the Minister, to find a model that is more acceptable, if that is the need, but we mustn't lose focus of what that commission ought to be doing.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I humbly disagree with Lesley Griffiths that we don't need this Bill, because the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 was created in 2015, and we are now two terms later and we certainly haven't made the progress that we need to make on changing our relationship with food. The community food strategy you're working on with Plaid Cymru is a nice to have, but it is not at the centre of re-engineering—

Jenny.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —our relationship with good food.

Jenny, can you hold on a minute? We've lost your mike. It's not working. Can we check if Huw's mike is working?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I think it is working.

Jenny, yours is on now. Do you want to start again, Jenny?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. I humbly disagree with the Minister for rural affairs and food. We need a whole-system change that we simply haven't achieved from the well-being of future generations Act, which was introduced in the fourth term, and we are now in the sixth term of this Parliament. The community food strategy the Minister is working on with Plaid Cymru is a nice to have, but it simply isn't at the centre of re-engineering our relationship with food, which is currently completely distorted by the dominance of the obesogenic food industry.
I can list at least six other ministries that need to be paying attention to this. First of all, the agriculture Bill and the sustainable farming scheme that it proposes to embed simply isn't clear enough, because the farming unions are saying that they do not understand what they are being asked to do. So, we need to have some greater clarity on the strategic importance of growing the food that we need to ensure the food security of our country.
Secondly, the new curriculum is really fantastic, and its emphasis on well-being is another opportunity to change the relationship of children with food. By the time they're three, they have already imbibed poor habits from generations of people who've not had that close relationship with food.
We start with breastfeeding. We have the worst breastfeeding rates for the whole of Europe, as far as I’m aware, despite the fact that it helps children not get childhood ear, chest and gut infections and offers protection, lifetime protection, from other life-threatening conditions. For women, it lowers the risk of breast and ovarian cancer, osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease—

Jenny, you need to ask your question now, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —and obesity. And yet, the amount that we spend on breastfeeding is absolutely negligible. So, we absolutely need to change children's relationship with food.
If we're going to continue to be able to afford to roll out universal free school meals to all primary schools and beyond, we hope, in secondary schools, the £260 million that we are currently dedicating to that will only be affordable in the long term if we are drawing the ingredients for that food from our foundational economy. And that means developing those local food networks.
Then, on climate change—

Jenny, can you ask your question, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: —food is the largest emitter of carbon emissions by individual households—bigger than going on a plane, bigger than their transport costs, bigger than heating their homes.
Lastly, clearly, the Minister for Social Justice must be involved in ensuring that everybody has access to healthy food, and her deputy, in charge of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, needs to pay much more attention to how we're going to publicly procure food locally. This is a journey, not an event, and therefore I strongly support—. I do not understand how you're going to do all of this complex work without this food commission. What is your strategy if you cannot get the Government to set up a food commission?

Before Peter answers, can I remind Members that this is a statement, not a debate? Therefore, there are time limits that have to be adhered to, please. Peter.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Jenny, and thank you for your support. Can I thank you for the work that you're doing in this area within the cross-party working group for school meals, and what you are aspiring to see? I've been happy to work with you on there, because we need to alter the nature of the food that our young people are accessing. We need local, sustainable food within our communities. Sadly, we heard, didn’t we, through the cross-party working group, that often procurement contracts are based 70 per cent on cost, 30 per cent on quality. That’s wrong. That’s morally wrong, when we have such high-quality local produce that we could put into our public services, into our schools.
I believe too, as you do, that the commission—or a body similar to it, with expertise from education, from health, from Welsh Government, from producers, from consumers—needs to be together to shape the whole, holistic picture. You can’t have one person who specialises just in agriculture to be able to shape a whole food system. You need somebody with all of those talents, all of that expertise, to come together to create this holistic picture. That’s why I was against one commissioner. I feel that it needs a breadth of expertise. And as I said, the shape of this would sit with the Government—it’s a framework Bill—in how they would put that together, and they could put it together in a way that actually achieves the targets that the Bill is looking at and achieves their own targets. So, I do believe that a commission, or something very similar, has to happen.
I do not believe—and I will reiterate it again—that the future generations commissioner would have the capacity or scope to pick this up. Indeed, the commissioner has been extremely supportive and has recognised our Bill in her recent report. I think that she recognises that there is a huge piece of work here. We've tried to do it in such a way that there is a synergy between how we’ve put this together and all the other policies in the framework that currently exists.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I’d just firstly like to start by paying tribute to Peter Fox for all the hard work the Member for Monmouth has done to date to get the Bill to this point. The purpose of this Bill is admirable and timely, and I strongly disagree with the Minister: it is the right Bill at the right time. It aims to establish a more sustainable food system here in Wales, which certainly the country has been crying out for for some time, encouraging joined-up thinking across stakeholders, which has sadly been lacking to date.
The aim is to establish a more sustainable food system in Wales. This means strengthening our food security through resilient supply chains, supporting development of our food industry, and increasing consumer knowledge of where food comes from. Gaining this knowledge I know to be crucial, especially in our schools. The Bill really has an opportunity not only to ensure we’re sustainable as a nation whilst increasing our food security, but also it is a huge opportunity to really transform food education and the quality and localness of food in Wales’s schools, as you’ve already touched on, reducing those food miles and supporting local economies and rural communities through local procurement. It would be great if that was the outcome of this Bill, which I know is what you intend, Peter. I’ve no doubt that using local food in our schools would not only improve education on where food comes from, but the importance of buying local, and the environmental impact of doing so, as well as the equality of improving the health of our children and tackling childhood obesity.
So, you’ve touched on it already, but what conversations have you had with schools, with local authorities and producers—as you outlined already that you were interested in—regarding this, when you were putting together this Bill? I do strongly believe, Deputy Presiding Officer, that it’s time to celebrate, support and utilise our local produce in an effective and efficient way, finally, and that’s why I urge everybody in this Chamber today to support Peter Fox’s Food (Wales) Bill.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Laura, and education is absolutely fundamental and at the core of this. It is morally wrong in this day and age that we see obesity climbing as it is, especially in our young people. If we don’t act now—it’s not dissimilar to the climate change argument—what happens in the future? We have to, it’s our responsibility to lay the foundations of a better system for our children and young people, and education has to be at the core of that. As Jenny said earlier, the curriculum is a real opportunity to shape education and help people understand how to use food better, the benefits of food, and change their eating habits, and then perhaps those young people can go home and change the way their families think, because this is a very big issue. It’s not going to happen overnight, but you need to start nudging it.
I was very pleased through the consultation to have many local authorities contact us and contribute, and you can find those all on the website, wanting the stability that this Bill would give them, this guidance, this strategy, so they had something to work towards. And individual authorities I’ve spoken to welcome this, because they’re already trying to do things in this way. Cardiff is a great example. Monmouthshire, my own authority, and others have examples of trying to do more on local produce, but they need this framework to work towards, and that’s what isn’t in place, and that’s what we need to put in place, so that everybody knows where their place is in the food system to achieve those food goals and targets.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I genuinely congratulate Peter on getting it to this stage. It doesn’t have a good track record, getting private Members’ backbench business through this place. But genuinely, a lot of work has gone into this.
My questions in a minute, really quickly, to rattle off, are: this is described frequently as ‘holistic’, but as Jenny pointed out, and if I had more time I’d point out as well, I don’t think it’s comprehensive. It’s holistic, but not comprehensive, so curiously, rather than some grand scheme that pulls everything together, what I’d prefer to see is actually actions driven to get on with what we should be doing. So, my question to him as a reluctant legislator, but a supporter of backbench legislation, is: what in this actually does duplicate, and could be left out from legislation, that you could just say to the Minister, ‘Minister, get on with whatever you currently have there’?
Secondly, the issue of the costs within this. They aren’t gone into in detail. I understand why. But at this very moment in time, is it appropriate to set up another commission, et cetera, rather than actually saying to the existing mechanisms, ‘Get on with it. You’ve been tasked to do this, so get on with it’?
And, in the five seconds remaining, in the local food plans, which I’m really excited about the idea of that, who are those public boards? You've mentioned local authorities, health boards. What about regional partnership boards? What about the voluntary sector and the third sector who provide the food pantries, the foodbanks, and everything else? What about the community growers, and so on—where do they feature within this? Where does the third sector fit?
Where does procurement fit into this? Have we given consideration to local, fresh-first legislation, as they do in Italy, which says that's the first call on any procurement? And what about the right to food as a fundamental issue? So, it's holistic, but I'm not sure it's comprehensive, and if you can't proceed with this, are there other ways to take some of the good points within this forward?

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Huw. I think if you read through the explanatory memorandum, all 123 pages, you will find the answers to every one of those questions, in quite considerable detail, in many ways. You ask what can the Government get on with. Well, I've set food goals and targets, because there aren't any at the moment. There's who's holding who to account in the country for delivering against food goals. We're not seeing those. Public services are crying out for food goals, they're crying out for direction and things they can aspire to.
The costs, as I touched on earlier, I have to go through a certain process, as you'll be well aware, and we've given a range of costs in comparison to other commissioners. As I said earlier, if you truly embraced what this is trying to do and you wanted the future generations commissioner or another commissioner to embrace this, you would have to put resource into that to unlock the capacity to deliver this. If there is a desire for a food strategy and a system that delivers all we want—.
And when I say 'holistic', I say 'holistic' because it's the only word I can find to describe a whole picture. In my mind's eye, I regularly see a strategy. I see production at the bottom, a strategy over the top and the use of that food within that circle of life going to help the health of young people, helping those societal issues, driving the sustainable change. And, at the moment, the system does not do that. It satisfies the bottom of the circle—the production, the sustainable, hitting carbon, all this—but we have not seen a community food strategy that delivers against those wider societal issues.
In Scotland, you've got the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Act 2022, which is not dissimilar to what we're doing; you've got a strategy in England. There is no strategy here. There is no strategy, and you have to have a strategy to be able to start to deliver. And you need, like we've put here, goals and targets so that people can be held to account for making sure that we bring the change this country and our young people desperately need.

Finally, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I also welcome Peter Fox's statement this afternoon? As I share an office or have an office next door to yours upstairs, Peter, I know how hard you have worked on this Bill and your staff—in particular, Tyler Walsh—as well, so I think that's worth mentioning.
I think this is, as others have said, the right Bill at the right time, because it delivers that joined-up approach to the food system. And what I wanted to come back to, which we have touched a little bit on, was the local food strategies, as drafted. As you know, probably more than anyone in this Chamber, councils will have already a lot of reporting requirements placed on them as a result of Government legislation that already exists, and we're aware that with each new regulation, each new Bill that gets passed through here, that requires financial and human resources for those councils, which, in some cases, are quite stretched already. So, how would you ensure that, from this Bill, councils see the opportunities that it can provide and not the burdens? How would they add value to those plans and facilitate community actions, rather than feel they're imposing them on their local communities as well? Thank you.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Tom, and thank you for that challenge, and I know it's done as a critical friend. Food plans, I think, are absolutely fundamental to this. As I said earlier, there are many authorities trying to do things around food, but there is no joined-up approach across Wales to do this. We need local authorities to be able to—. We need to encourage them to regulate, if need be—well, this would require—for them to procure more locally. What the shape and the level and the target of that procurement is for the Government to set. But don't forget, local authorities have a responsibility for the young people they serve and they should aspire to this, and not everything should be seen, as I said earlier, in monetary terms. There's a social currency to these things, if we really want to make change. The councils I have spoken to have welcomed it. Look at my consultation responses from Monmouth, from Swansea; look at the health board responses from Betsi Cadwaladr to our own health board, who say there is a need for this and the importance of it. These are the people I'm asking to put a food plan in. They're not saying, 'We don't want one; this is extra bureaucracy.' What they're saying is, 'Yes, we need it.' And that's why I absolutely believe we're heading in the right way with food plans, as is put in place in Scotland and is proved all over many countries.

I thank Peter Fox.

6. Debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee Report—'Gender based violence: The needs of migrant women'

Item 6 this afternoon is the debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report on 'Gender based violence: The needs of migrant women', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jenny Rathbone.

Motion NDM8166 Jenny Rathbone
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on 'Gender based violence: The needs of migrant women', laid on 26 October 2022.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Research demonstrates that migrant women are disproportionately affected by gender-based violence. This is hardly surprising, as they face multiple forms of abuse and extra challenges when it comes to accessing support. This debate is not just about the position of asylum seekers; there are very large numbers of people living in this country, and including in Wales, mainly women, who come to this country on spouse visas or student visas, neither of which allow any recourse to public funds, and who therefore could be vulnerable to bullying, to human trafficking and human slavery. There are sadly always people out there ready to take advantage of gaps in vulnerability and support mechanisms. So, this is a particular group that the stakeholders told us were an area of policy that needed to be tightened up because of the difficulties that service providers were having in providing an adequate service to support these vulnerable people.
This is about language barriers, it's about cultural norms. People who come to this country may not be aware they're breaking the law if they're committing acts of domestic violence. And also we have had cases of immigration abuse, and they all cause more difficulties for these women in need of help, coupled with a lack of trust in front-line services, and in particular how their information might be shared.
So, engagement with survivors is crucial in understanding the complex issues and shaping an informed and refined policy approach. I want to thank all those who contributed to our inquiry, but particularly to the women who shared their stories with us courageously and with honesty. Their contributions were vital to our understanding of the issues involved. I also want to thank the Senedd's community engagement team who enabled that to be possible, as well as the research and clerking teams who supported our committee's work.
Language is a key challenge for migrant women—this is not stating the obvious. It can hinder awareness raising—messages on buses, in public toilets are not going to be read by somebody who can't read English—and it also puts a barrier in the way of prevention strategies and access to support. There's very limited availability of interpretation services, and women often end up relying on family members or other people in their communities to interpret for them. And this has huge implications for both their dignity and the accuracy of what support workers are being told. So, we are very pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted our first recommendation, to ensure that there is much more accessibility to independent and professional interpreting, and we'd be very keen to find out whether that's made a noticeable difference in due course.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Unsurprisingly, women who are migrants often have limited understanding of what their rights are and the support available to them, simply because they're not familiar with any of the laws that we may have passed here or, indeed, in the UK Parliament. So, it's very important that we use the informal networks that people might—you hope—have access to from other people in their community, from other members of their particular ethnic group, because they're more likely to turn to them if they don't have very wide networks with other people. So, awareness-raising and prevention strategies need to take place at grass-roots level, whether it's word of mouth, WhatsApp, or other ways, and I applaud the fact that the Welsh Government has agreed to talk to survivors to inform the effectiveness of that strategy. We very much welcome the establishment of the survivor voice scrutiny and involvement panel, and look forward to seeing what recommendations they come up with.
When it comes to no recourse to public funds, it leaves a huge dilemma for service providers who are not funded to do this sort of thing. It also means that there are difficulties for the Welsh Government as well, because no recourse to public funds is what it says on the tin, and it very much sits on the jagged edge between devolved and reserved responsibilities. They're simply not allowed to access services paid for by the public purse, so if they've been physically assaulted, maybe they can turn up in the emergency department and get emergency treatment, but they certainly won't be eligible for counselling to overcome their trauma.
Last year's 'Uncharted Territory Review' noted that the question of funding for refuge provision for women and girls was as big an issue in 2013 as it was in 2021, and data from Welsh Women's Aid shows that in 2020-21 there was a 29 per cent increase in the number of survivors who were refused a refuge space due to lack of resourcing compared to the previous financial year, and obviously that's an extremely worrying situation. Yes, organisations can apply to the Home Office for suspension of the no recourse to public funds because of evidence of violence, but the time it takes to get a decision is unlikely to be immediately, or, indeed, a reply the next day. No recourse to public funds is a UK-wide policy in a reserved area of responsibility, but there are still things that Welsh Government can do to fill the gap. For example, in Scotland, the Ending Destitution Together scheme involves a partnership approach between the Scottish Government and local government, and this gives that gap funding to service providers to enable them to immediately ensure that the woman is safe whilst they're negotiating with the Home Office. I appreciate absolutely that the Welsh Government has accepted nearly all our recommendations and has given very good and coherent answers where they're only able to accept them in principle.
The next area that we looked at is the issue of data. It would be really helpful if we knew a lot more about exactly how many people are involved and what ethnic groups they come from, whether there's any particular pattern to this. Often, service providers don't actually ask what ethnicity or, indeed, their immigration status is in many circumstances because they don't want to appear to be discriminating against somebody based on their situation—they want to help them. So, records are patchy. We simply don't know how many of these people are working, whether they have children, therefore whether they're in touch with public services, which is much more likely than if they're not working and are without children to ensure they're picking them up from school et cetera.
Recommendation 10 calls for the Welsh Government to use data from the equality, race and disability units to establish baselines to inform future monitoring and targeting of services. The Welsh Government has accepted this, although we note that the mapping exercises and data-sharing agreements that need to be developed will take time. Sarah Murphy is a member of our committee, ever vigilant on how our data is used, by whom, and for what purpose, so our report highlights the importance of migrant women having a clear understanding of what is happening to their data, and that additional support may be needed to make sure they are giving informed consent, rather than nodding without understanding what they're consenting to.
You won't be surprised to know that migrant survivors are often prevented from reporting abuse to the police for fear that their data may be shared with immigration enforcement. We were assured that this never happens, but I don't think we can say 'never'. But at least it is the official position of the police that they will not share this data with immigration services unless there was a major criminal or terrorist issue involved with that individual. We suggested that there was a need to establish a firewall to restrict the sharing of data between agencies on those who seek support for sexual and gender-based violence, so that we have a much more accurate picture. The Welsh Government has accepted this in principle because, obviously, they don't control what the UK Government gets up to. But we look forward to hearing in future what progress is made in discussions with devolved and non-devolved partners to understand the issues around data sharing, the impact on migrant victims, and to consider options for a firewall.
Generally, we welcome very much the Minister's engagements with our inquiry, and the collaborative approach that Jane Hutt has shown to strengthening the new strategy on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence for the next five years to include a section dealing specifically with the needs of migrant women and children and those who are subject to no recourse to public funds. In the Minister's response, she notes that supporting migrant victims of violence and domestic abuse and sexual violence, including those with NRPF, is already addressed in the strategy as a key priority. We suggest there needs to be a specific section in the strategy tailored to the needs of migrant women because of the level of their vulnerability and the possibility they will fall between cracks in services. I look forward to everybody else's comments.

Altaf Hussain AS: As a member of Equality and Social Justice Committee, I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate on our report on gender-based violence and the needs of migrant women. Before I reflect on some of the key messages and challenges outlined in this report, I would like to thank our committee chair, Jenny Rathbone, all our staff who have supported this inquiry, and indeed all those who gave evidence in the course of our work. Since the publication of the report, the Welsh Government has accepted the committee's recommendations, either fully or in principle. I welcome the positive response and I hope the committee will keep this work under review over the next 12 months as the Minister puts in place those measures the committee have identified.
The evidence was clear that refugee, migrant and asylum-seeking women fleeing violence and abuse experience a range of challenges that are, in many ways, unique in comparison to others. Women in these groups tend to experience a higher level of violence, not only on their migration journey, but also because of barriers such as age, language, isolation, insecure immigration status and poverty. There are sets of characteristics that place these women at greater risk and for which we need to do more. During the course of the review, I was keen to ensure that more focus would be put on those areas of prevention and early intervention. Much of the evidence pointed to the problems of ensuring that intervention is built around getting information and support to migrant women before any abuse takes place. Some of those were clear that the intervention and prevention agenda simply is not where it should be, and that organisations tend to be reactive once the abuse has so tragically taken place.
In their evidence, BAWSO said that work on prevention is not there, and I think that is something that the Welsh Government could fund. In our report, we set out how there is a clear need for survivor voices to shape our approach to communication, and that we should not underestimate the importance of working within the communities to ensure that messages are disseminated to help build trust and confidence, both of which are essential to encourage victims to come forward. The committee has welcomed the Minister's commitment to developing a survivor voice scrutiny and involvement panel, but this has to be more than just listening, because without action to respond to the challenges faced by migrant women, that talk will be pointless.Our recommendation is that this engagement should be in the development of a community strategy on awareness raising and prevention, which can form guidance to statutory bodies. This is the right approach, as much more is needed to improve awareness raising and prevention, but the statutory bodies can be supported and influenced in what they do through better guidance.
In accepting this, our second recommendation needs to drive the improvement that those who gave evidence were calling for. Along with a detailed plan to advance all the recommendations, I believe the earlier we intervene to support migrant women facing violence and abuse, the better. Thank you very much.

Sioned Williams MS: The main thrust of our recommendations concerns improving support for a particular group of women, who are too often neglected and even invisible to society. I have certainly heard evidence that will stay with me forever about the experience of survivors from migrant communities. We looked at what can be done to ensure these women are seen, are heard, are supported, and are able to feel safe. I welcome the undeniable commitment of the Minister to addressing the levels of violence against women and girls, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales, and the response of the Government to the recommendations of our report reflects this, I think.
Centring survivor voice is often claimed by strategies, and the Government refers in its response to the report to the many cross-cutting action plans that are relevant to supporting migrant women that aim to do this. I accept the work is ongoing, but I would like to emphasise that we found many examples of where survivors and their communities had not been adequately listened to or consulted. This seemed especially true of raising-awareness campaigns around what constitutes abuse and when and where to access support. We have to do more to ensure we are engaging with women of all cultures and nationalities, to ensure they are protected, that they know their rights, and that they're able to seek help if needed—truly simple things, like some of the things Jenny Rathbone referenced: understanding women are more likely to see an advert on a bus than go to a website, as digital exclusion is such a huge barrier, appreciating where migrant women are, in the words of one of BAWSO's officers, 'allowed to go'. Migrant women we spoke to told us that traditional media is more accessible to them than social media, but, as Jenny Rathbone said, they impressed on us that this content must be available in different languages.
I think what this report also again foregrounds, and again Jenny referenced this, is this jagged edge between the devolved and reserved powers and responsibilities of which we speak so often in this place, Minister, especially when it comes to matters of social justice and equalities. So much of the evidence we heard was around how the UK Government's policy of no recourse to public funds is such a huge barrier for those experiencing sexual or gender-based violence and seeking support. I want to repeat some of the evidence we heard about the impact of that policy, becauseI think it's a danger that politicians don't always fully grasp, or can become desensitised to the human story behind that jargon and those legal terms that we hear or read so often in policy documents and reports. One contributor to one of our focus groups, whose work is supporting migrant women with experience of VAWDASV, gave an example of a pregnant asylum seeker with no recourse to public funds,
'She cries every day saying she's not comfortable where she is, the accommodation is terrible, there's smoke in the kitchen, doors are broken, she doesn't feel safe, she doesn't know who the accommodation manager is because she's just been put there and no-one comes to see her. Because she has no recourse to public funds, I can't apply for benefits or accommodation for her.'
And we have to remember these are women who have suffered trauma. Some of the trauma we heard about was unimaginable to most of us—truly, truly unimaginable. And this policy means that there is no help for these women who need our help so badly.
But, powerfully, our report does make recommendations that could really help try to smooth that jagged edge in some cases for these women. It was evident that a crisis fund that service providers can access to support migrant women who are survivors of sexual and gender-based violence and are subject to no recourse to public funds, modelled on the Scottish Government's approach, would be extremely helpful, and I'm really glad to see that the Government has accepted this recommendation and would urge its implementation as a matter of urgency. Our aim to be a nation of sanctuary would be so well supported by this approach. And, given the central role of immigration status in the evidence we heard and the terrifying plans and disgusting rhetoric that we are hearing from the Westminster Tory Government around their approach and attitude to those seeking sanctuary, measures such as this are completely crucial to counter this in Wales. I invite you, Minister, to join me in placing on record today our utter condemnation of calls within the Tory party to try to pull the UK out of the European Convention on Human Rights in order to remove rights from some of the most vulnerable people on this planet. Similar hateful rhetoric has been echoed online from Conservative Members in this place, which is all the more shameful as we enter the Christmas period, a holiday that has its foundation in gifting, sharing, goodwill and providing refuge.
To conclude, quite simply, no woman living in Wales should be unable to access vital support, such as specialist supported accommodation, because of their immigration status. Everyone has a right to be safe and to lead a life free of abuse and fear. I'm hopeful that the recommendations of our report will help ensure that.

Sarah Murphy AS: I'd like to thank the Welsh Government for its response and my colleagues and clerks on the committee for their work, and all the organisations and people who spoke to us and contributed to this report. 'Gender based violence: The needs of migrant women' report looked into many aspects of domestic violence against women and the needs of migrant women, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted or accepted in principle all of the recommendations.
Many of the recommendations focus on access to services that can enable women to come forward and get help free from shame and judgment, and I would like to use my contribution today to expand on recommendations 10 to 13, which Jenny Rathbone has mentioned, which address the issues around the data that is collected and shared about migrant women who are experiencing VAWDASV, as well as highlight the work of the cross-party group on digital rights and democracy in Wales that has recently held a further panel discussion to explore this.
Recommendation 12 calls on the Welsh Government, police and local authorities to address concerns around the data sharing and survivors' willingness to seek support. Organisations such as BAWSO and the Equality and Human Rights Commission stated that this fear of data being shared with immigration enforcement and the Home Office was fundamentally stopping victims coming forward. Despite there being no legal duty for the police to share information with immigration enforcement, those working on the ground are telling us that this does happen and this fear is perpetuated amongst communities and used by perpetrators to coerce victims.
Elizabeth from the Step Up Migrant Women coalition has told recently of a case of a woman experiencing high-risk domestic abuse. The victim was undocumented as part of her abuse. Her caseworker recommended reporting it to the police because of the high risk of the situation. Eight days after they did an online report to the police, she received an immigration enforcement letter. Police officers came to her house, and when they realised that she was undocumented, they called the immigration enforcement in front of her. So, it builds on what Jenny Rathbone was saying before, and it builds on what Sioned Williams was saying as well: I promise you that, if you ask women, they will tell you very many more stories of this happening.
Recommendation 11 called for the Welsh Government to set out how it plans to ensure that, when collecting data from migrant women, they have a clear understanding of what is happening with their data and how it will inform future decision-making. It is imperative that we empower migrant women to know exactly who is using their data and why. By doing so, we will dismantle that fear associated with the data sharing, making consent a normalised practice for our personal data.
From a different perspective, the cross-party group found that organisations on the ground helping migrant women want to be able to question how and why authorities will use data when it is being requested from them, so this included bodies like Public Health Wales, and this recommendation, accepted by the Welsh Government, could enable them to do that. Prioritising data transparency will empower both the individual and organisations to protect victims from potential data harms and build trust for those who desperately need a safe place to turn to.
Finally, recommendation 13 outlines that the Welsh Government should establish a firewall that restricts the sharing of data between agencies on those who seek support for sexual and gender-based violence. A firewall would essentially put a block on systems used by the police authorities to share the data of victims of domestic abuse with immigration enforcement. The Welsh Government has accepted this in principle, whilst noting that police forces are governed by UK GDPR, and this puts constraints on the powers of the Welsh Government to enforce. But in Holland, the committee heard of a 'safe in, safe out' policy, where migrants with insecure immigration status can come to the police stations and report crime with a certainty that their immigration status won't take precedence or won't be shared with immigration enforcement officers. This is about setting a precedent that victims will be seen as victims and not as criminals for an immigration status. Similar good practice is taking place between the police authorities in north Wales and BAWSO, and I would urge that the Welsh Government takes this into consideration when scoping out nationwide policy, especially as conversations around the devolution of justice and policing continue to take place. Very much what you were saying, Sioned, about the jagged edge, because this is also the visa and immigration and Home Office too.
The committee heard from deputy chief constable Amanda Blakeman that any data sharing should be focused on the safeguarding of the victim, and this could include court protection, accommodation or other safeguarding measures. When data is shared about victims of domestic violence that is not about safeguarding the victim, and that victim has no knowledge of this, it is a failure of the system.
I want to urge that we ensure that no woman is left behind because of this, and that all victims can come forward and find safety. Data, when handled in the correct manner, is a crucial element of supporting victims. However, in a nation of sanctuary, we cannot ignore that migrant women facing domestic abuse continue to be hidden because of the system. We must make sure that they are able to have a voice here in Wales, a voice without fear of those systems and a system that will always see victims of domestic base as victims, no matter the circumstances.
And just to end, I do stand with you, Sioned Williams, in condemning the Tories in Westminster for any way that they try to undermine the human rights legislation. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'm very grateful to the committee for conducting this inquiry on gender-based violence impacting on migrant women, and thank all of those who gave evidence, but especially those who shared their lived experiences, and the specialist services that support them. And it is only by working together, including taking into account all sources of evidence and our findings, that we can effect real change.
The Equality and Social Justice Committee's report highlights many areas where we will continue as Welsh Government to focus our efforts in order to protect migrant women from violence and abuse, and the Welsh Government's formal response to this report was published last week on 7 December. We know that violence and abuse have significant and long-lasting impacts for victims and those around them. The committee's report alongside the sexual and gender-based violence against refugees from displacement to arrival—SEREDA—research report, which, in fact, I welcomed and received in May of this year, and the 'Uncharted Territory' report show that this is particularly acute for refugee migrant and asylum-seeking women. And many of these women face multiple forms of abuse, including domestic violence, sexual violence, honour-based abuse, forced marriage, female genital mutilation and immigration abuse and trafficking. And these groups face higher levels of violence, not only in their migration journeys, but also when they reach their destination. And as the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee has highlighted, additional barriers, such as the lack of support networks, language barriers and no recourse to public funds, often leave those experiencing abuse with little or no choice but to stay in, or return to dangerous and abusive situations. Victims and survivors of violence against women, sexual violence and domestic abuse also have the added complexity of no recourse to public funds, they're one of the most vulnerable and marginalised groups in society, as Members have clearly shown in the report and also elaborated on today.

Jane Hutt AC: Wales cannot and will not be a bystander to abuse, and that's why the report and its recommendations are so welcome. I'm really pleased that the report includes the important works and makes the connections with our commitment to Wales being a nation of sanctuary. I've long been clear that our nation of sanctuary approach demonstrates our Welsh Government values. The nation of sanctuary plan contains clear cross-Government commitments to reducing the inequalities faced by sanctuary seekers, and this includes supporting survivors of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.
On Friday, I attended the online session organised by the cross-party group on digital rights and democracy in Wales, and the meeting explored the impact of data sharing on migrant women facing domestic violence, and it was an excellent opportunity to discuss the inequalities faced by migrant women fleeing domestic abuse and sexual violence, recognising the fears and concerns that many migrants have about who might have access to their personal information and how that information might be used in different ways. These concerns are very understandable, especially when we consider the situations and regimes that some migrant women have escaped from.
Nevertheless, as the committee's inquiry found, efforts to support migrant women can be frustrated by a lack of robust data. To enable migrant women to access the protection and support that they need, there will be occasions where data will need to be shared between organisations. So, our response as a Welsh Government to the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report put forward a number of recommendations relating to data and data sharing, and in our response, we identified additional measures that could be put into place to ensure better outcomes for victims of gender-based violence. We do understand the concerns around data sharing between organisations, which, again, have been discussed today, but we also recognise the importance of ensuring that victims of abuse need to have a clear understanding of what happens with their data and, where appropriate, give their consent to data being shared.
In 2021, the Welsh Government, in collaboration with partners from the specialist violence against women sector, established a steering group to review the support available to those fleeing violence and abuse with no recourse to public funds. This group is chaired by the national advisers for gender-based abuse, and it's central to finding solutions that work for Wales. While immigration is not devolved, we're committed to working with partners within Wales and to raising our concerns with the UK Government to find solutions that can address these inequalities.
We're still awaiting the evaluation of the Home Office's support for migrant victims scheme, and while this scheme has provided a lifeline for the victims fleeing abuse, the problems of people with no recourse to public funds are entirely of the UK Government's making. This scheme has its limitations, and we don't intend to wait for the Home Office report. Instead, we will put victims and survivors first, and we've accepted the committee's recommendation relating to a fund to support migrant victims with NRPF. My officials are currently scoping the best approach for Wales, and we're committed to meeting the needs of this group of victims and survivors.
As has been said today, the unimaginable trauma that migrant women face—this is where we have to respond to this, and I believe, in accepting that recommendation, the work, I can assure Members, is already under way. I want to assure Members that, actually, work on all the recommendations is now under way. They really inform the way we're taking forward our new and refreshed national strategy for tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.
I think it's important that I do co-chair the national partnership board with Dafydd Llywelyn, this is a blueprint approach with devolved and non-devolved. Yes, there's a huge jagged edge here, isn't there, and I recognise that, but we have got to move that forward in terms of understanding and holding to account the roles and powers of devolved and non-devolved authorities and organisations. We've already invited the Welsh Refugee Council to sit on the national partnership board—that's part of the governance structure to take forward our strategy, published in May. BAWSO already sits on the board. And can I pay tribute to BAWSO for the specialist work that they do? They, actually, arepart of the Home Office pilot as well. They're fundamental to Wales and, of course, they ensure that migrant women do have an important survivor voice.
We've included our work on no recourse to public funds in the upcoming annual violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence report; it's being published in December. That's a statutory requirement under the VAWDASV Act, and we will continue to report on our work to support victims and survivors in future years.
We've also engaged with safeguarding boards regarding the committee's findings in relation to reviewing the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014, and that will help both us and the safeguarding board partners to reflect on their responsibilities.
So, just finally, Deputy Llywydd, this is a testament—this report today—to the urgency that we all, I think, united here today, have placed upon protecting victims. We will play our part as a Welsh Government. I welcome the call to action in the committee's report, and this is an ambition that's set out in our programme for government, which clearly states that we want Wales to be the safest place in Europe to be a woman. And let's be clear, we don't just mean for some women, we mean all women: women who've had to flee conflict, women who have no recourse to public funds, women who are seeking asylum, women who are refugees. And as part of our nation of sanctuary commitment, we seek to strengthen and advance equality and human rights in Wales, and that is our message to the UK Government.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, and thank you, Minister, for mentioning that we also heard from two other Ministers, the Minister for health and the Deputy Minister for Social Services, particularly in relation to the importance of the social services and well-being Act and whether it was being fully taken account of in addressing the issues of anybody who suffers from gender-based violence, regardless of their immigration status. So, we very much look forward to that review.
I thank my colleagues on the committee for their remarks in heightening the issues that we have been discussing, because we have to remember that any of us could come across this issue in our constituency work, because migrant women are everywhere. You can't say that they're in one particular place or another; people are all over Wales, and we need to ensure that all our services are equipped to deal appropriately when they come across gender-based violence being suffered by migrant women.
And we did hear examples—. Along with the harrowing stories that Sioned mentioned, we heard lots of good examples of good practice by different agencies where migrant women had disclosed evidence of being victims of domestic violence, where the police, the schools, employers, health, community centres and voluntary advice bodies all understood that they needed to act and not be a bystander and had referred people, in the main to BAWSO or another specialist organisation, because, often, the language barrier is very significant. But, of course, we have no idea about the numbers of women who are too frightened to come forward and who remain in violent relationships.
I absolutely applaud the work you're doing with Dafydd Llywelyn, one of the police commissioners, because it's a very difficult area, this, isn't it? As was mentioned by Sioned Williams, the whole upheaval around human rights policy creates a hostile environment for people fleeing discrimination, famine and conflict, and if they're too terrified to come forward because they think they might be sent back to the area they've come from, then you can see that it makes it even more difficult for them to get the help where it's needed. In light of the concerns that were raised earlier about poor behaviour in the police and the fire services, we have to ensure that all services understand that we are a nation of sanctuary, that we need to respond appropriately when survivors of violence come forward, regardless of their immigration status, regardless of their ability, at that point, to have recourse to public funds. We look forward to working with the Minister, who obviously has an absolute passion for ensuring that this subject is addressed appropriately and to the best of our ability. So, I hope that other Members will find this report helpful.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Child Poverty

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on child poverty, and I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM8165 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Regrets that child poverty rates in Wales are the highest in the UK.
2. Recognises that the current cost-of-living crisis is exacerbating recent trends which have seen child poverty rates increase in Wales, despite the Welsh Government’s pledge to eradicate child poverty by 2020.
3. Notes that the Welsh Government does not currently possess a strategy on tackling child poverty, despite repeated calls from the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and other child poverty action groups for specific and urgent focus and action in this area.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to develop a child poverty strategy, underpinned by statutory targets, as a matter of urgency.

Motion moved.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Child poverty exists in every part of Wales. It not only exists, but it stains our communities, because child poverty causes serious and lifelong harm to the outcomes of those who are our nation’s future, and the longer a child remains in poverty, the more profound the harms will be.
How many times have we heard the shocking statistics that create those harms repeated in this place, in debate after debate, quoting report after report? But we must keep repeating them. We must give child poverty the absolute focus that it calls for, and retain that focus, and sharpen that focus, because the levels of child poverty that we're now seeing, exacerbated by the cost of living crisis, are so worrying. There isn’t a single council ward anywhere in Wales with a child poverty rate below 12 per cent. That’s over one in 10 children in every single ward. Think of that. Picture those children. And the levels are even higher, of course—much higher—in too many of our communities.
But we must also remember that this isn’t a new issue. And what is now being repeated—rather than just the statistics—by those who campaign against poverty, like the Child Poverty Action Group, who advocate for children and young people, like the children’s commissioner, who interrogate how the Welsh Government is responding to tackling poverty, like Audit Wales, and by us in Plaid Cymru, is that we need a new strategy to drive this most important work, a strategy with targets, to give better focus, co-ordination and to drive the work that needs to be done to eradicate child poverty.
This has been a long-standing call, many months before the cost-of-living crisis and energy crisis deepened even further these appalling levels of child poverty. It’s disappointing to see the Government’s amendment, which smacks, really, of political defensiveness. It really does miss the point of our motion, which is to echo these calls for a strategy with targets to make sure that we're doing the absolute best that we can, with the resources and powers that we have, to achieve the aim we all want to see—that no child in Wales suffers the harms of poverty.
Yes, there's been investment. But that’s why we need to measure its effectiveness against strategic targets, ensuring money is being spent where it's most needed, where it can have the most impact. We need better evaluation, better co-ordination of efforts, and avoidance of duplication or short-termism. Without it, there is inevitably a well-intentioned but scatter-gun approach, leading to instances like the 2018 baby bundles pilot scheme, delivered in partnership with Barnardo’s, which delivered positive outcomes and reduced stigma of new parents by creating a baseline and ensuring that every parent could provide the basics needed for a new-born baby. But this was not rolled out more widely. Barnardo’s, who also support calls for a new child poverty strategy, stated that, at a time of huge financial pressure on most households, this could have ensured that all new parents receive some tried-and-tested, effective support for their young families.
As for the mention in the Government amendment of its current child poverty strategy, let’s remember that we are talking about the one adopted over 10 years ago, revised in 2015, and which Audit Wales termed out of date. And of course, its central target—to eliminate child poverty by 2020—was dropped. So, an update report on a targetless, out-of-date strategy doesn’t really cut it, does it, especially when dealing with such a serious, devastating issue as child poverty.
That progress report arrived in our inboxes after 6 o'clock yesterday evening, accompanied by a written statement. Really? This should be at the forefront of Government business, and yet here we are, in the very last week of business before the recess, a last-minute report. No statement, no debate in Government time in the Chamber to herald what is at the centre of the Government’s amendment.
Turning to that report, it was very difficult to find any evaluation of actions laid out in the update—numbers assisted, impact on beneficiaries, outcomes achieved. Listing the actions and how much money has been spent isn’t sufficient. How do we know what difference has been made on the well-being and economic security of lower-income families with children in Wales? Has progress in any of these areas actually made a difference to overall child poverty rates?

Sioned Williams MS: There will be a refreshed strategy next year, but there’s no mention of targets, and, given the answer the Prif Weinidog gave yesterday to my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths regarding the need for a child poverty strategy, I must say I’m slightly worried about that too, and the Government’s commitment to it. The Prif Weinidog said that he wanted his
'civil service colleagues and those we work with to be focused on...those practical actions that make a difference in the lives of Welsh citizens. Writing strategies is not something that is going to put food on anybody's table or help anybody to meet their fuel bills this winter.'
No, I agree that writing strategies doesn’t feed hungry children or wash their clothes or keep them warm, but, as I said earlier, it’s essential to be able to focus, target, evaluate and drive work across Government.
Melanie Simmonds, head of Save the Children Cymru, recently wrote about coming across a Save the Children report published 15 years ago, around the time she joined the charity. It was called ‘Listen Up!’, and based on research conducted with 100 children and young people aged between five and 16 who lived in areas of high deprivation across Wales in 2007. ‘It sadly resonates’, she says,
‘with what we are hearing from children and families we work with today’.
The children who took part talked, she says,
‘about missing out on many aspects of childhood including social activities. They felt excluded and bullied because of the clothes they wore. They described the impact of poverty on children’s diets and how this could lead to poor health in later life. And they talked about how they instinctively knew when their parents felt sad because they couldn’t provide for their children.’
She then says:
‘Fast forward to 2022 and we’re hearing similar heart-breaking stories of children as young as seven being upset at school and telling their teacher that they heard their mum crying because there is only a tin of beans in the cupboard. We’re hearing from another mum left with just £50 to feed a family of four after paying her bills and not knowing what else she can cut back on.’
‘We have also heard of parents who have had to send their children to live with other family members over the school holidays because they can’t afford to feed them, and of children who missed out on trips to places such as Barry Island over the summer simply because the bus or train fare was out of reach.’
Children, she says, are paying the price for the cost-of-living crisis, which is unacceptable, and urgent action is needed. She goes on to ask what can be done. She rightly points out the duty of the UK Government to increase benefits, scrap the benefits cap, ensure wages keep up with costs. But she also calls on Welsh Government to present what she calls
‘key targets and milestones to provide an urgent, co-ordinated approach to tackling child poverty at a local and national level allowing public and third sectors to work together.’
Audit Wales in its recent report also notes
'there is currently no specific target for reducing poverty in Wales',
recommending the Welsh Government
'set SMART national actions;
'establish a suite of performance measures to judgedelivery and impact;
'sets target for alleviating and tackling poverty'.
The children’s commissioner is also unequivocal. She calls on Welsh Government to set ambitious targets to tackle child poverty. She says:
‘Without targets it's very difficult for me to do my job and hold the Welsh government to account and really see how well they are doing or how poorly we are doing.’
So, how would targets help? Writing about the argument for setting targets, Dr Steffan Evans of the Bevan Foundation says they would
‘provide the Welsh Government with an opportunity to develop a clear and coherent vision’,
measure progress and also make scrutiny better. He, however, rightly also warns that successive Welsh Governments
‘have developed various child poverty strategies and set itself the target of ending child poverty by 2020’,
but no significant progress was made. But lessons must and can be learned, says Dr Evans, which would lead to setting new targets that could have a real impact on poverty levels—targets that could reflect what is achievable with devolved competence, as this would allow the Welsh Government to be held to account for how effectively it’s implementing its own policies, and we would agree entirely with that.
Most importantly, he says
‘Too often in Wales we have fallen into the trap of setting aspirational targets or developing strategies and documents that set out well-meaning goals and values but with little detail as to how these will become reality. Any poverty targets should therefore be set alongside clear and focused commitments by the Welsh Government on the practical measures that it intends to adopt to meet them.’
This is crucial advice. This is what our motion is about. I look forward to hearing contributions.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Social Justice to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the significant investment of the Welsh Government in tackling child poverty and that in line with its current child poverty strategy, the Welsh Government will this month publish its update report and will be publishing a refreshed strategy in 2023.

Amendment 1 moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Formally.

I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Insert as new point 3 and renumber accordingly:
Welcomes the action being taken by the UK Government to help alleviate cost-of-living pressures faced by households in Wales.

Amendment 2 moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. We support the contents of this motion. Speaking here in 2019 in support of a motion calling on the Welsh Government to produce a tackling poverty strategy, budget and action plan, I noted the statement by the Children's Commissioner for Wales then that
'Welsh Government has a Child Poverty Strategy which outlines its long-term ambitions, but at the moment there’s no clear plan',
and,
'Welsh Government should write a new Child Poverty Delivery Plan, focusing on concrete and measurable steps'.
I also quoted the finding by the Equality and Human Rights Commission that
'poverty and deprivation still remain higher in Wales than other British nations',
and the statement by Oxfam Cymru,
'It’s not the case that anti-poverty strategies don’t work; it’s about how those strategies are targeted.'
To be clear, child poverty in Wales has been rising since 2004, when I first raised this with the Welsh Government. It had already reached the highest level in the UK before the credit crunch in 2008, the year it rose to 32 per cent in Wales. Latest figures show that 34 per cent of children in Wales are living in poverty, whilst the UK figure fell to 27 per cent. The primary reason for this remains that Wales has had the lowest growth in prosperity per head out of the UK nations since 1999, that Wales has the lowest employment rate in Great Britain, and that pay packets in Wales are the lowest amongst UK nations. And all this despite having received billions in supposedly temporary funding, designed to support economic development and reduce inequality between nations and regions.
The Welsh Government's child poverty progress report, conveniently published last night, states that the UK Government continues to hold the key levers to tackle poverty, revealing, once again, a mindset focused only on treating the symptoms rather than tackling the causes, and dodging the reality that the Welsh Government has been responsible for matters including economic development, education, skills, housing, health and social services in Wales for almost 24 years. It is silly to simply deflect blame by claiming that austerity was a political choice. The Welsh Government endlessly demanding more money could learn from Denis Healey, Alistair Darling and, yes, Liz Truss, you can't buck the markets.
By 2010, the UK budget deficit was the worst in the G20, behind only Ireland and Greece in the European Union. Dublin had to ask for a rescue package worth €85 billion from the EU, European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund in exchange for austerity measures. After initially trying to buck the markets, Greece had to implement severe austerity measures as part of an EU, ECB and IMF rescue deal. The Labour UK Government's March 2010 UK budget statement recognised that the scale of the deficit meant the UK didn't have enough money, with Chancellor Alistair Darling admitting that Labour's planned cuts in public spending would be deeper and tougher than in the 1980s.
Austerity was therefore inherited by the UK Government in 2010, and failure to reduce the deficit risked bigger imposed cuts. As every borrower knows, you cannot reduce debt until income exceeds expenditure, and the UK Government had almost eliminated the deficit when COVID-19 hit. Without this, the UK could not have raised the £300 billion borrowed to see us through the pandemic. Given that current inflation rates are higher in 23 European countries and 16 of the 27 EU member states than in the UK, with today's news hopefully showing that the UK peak is over, that the IMF has forecast that half of the eurozone countries at least are heading for recession, and that the UK's central bank interest rates are lower than in many major economies, only a very silly billy would claim that the current cost-of-living crisis was made in Westminster. Despite the UK Chancellor's need to address the gap between projected public finances and the requirement to reduce debt as a share of GDP, the UK Government has taken a range of measures to help alleviate cost-of-living pressures. I move amendment 2 accordingly.
We now need a Welsh Government child poverty strategy, focused on concrete and measurable steps, and including a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system, incorporating all the means-tested benefits it has responsibility for. We need real action based upon the Local Trust 'Left behind?' report in England, which evidences that poorer areas with greater community capacity and social infrastructure have better health and well-being outcomes, higher rates of employment and lower levels of child poverty compared to poorer areas without, and a growth plan with the business and third sectors and our communities, to finally build a more prosperous Welsh economy. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan AS: More than one in three children across Wales live below the poverty line—that's 10 children out of a class of 30—and in some areas, the rate is even higher, and unfortunately, the situation will only deteriorate further as the cost-of-living crisis continues to affect increasing numbers of people. Wales has a higher child poverty rate than other UK nations, and although the Minister is right to say in the child poverty progress report that a number of the main levers to tackle poverty, such as powers over the taxation and welfare systems, are the responsibility of the UK Government, this does not mean that the finger can be pointed solely at the UK Government when it comes to the lack of here progress in Wales. Even in the more affluent local authorities, at least a quarter of children are currently living below the poverty line. It's a serious problem in all parts of Wales.
The Welsh Government’s own statistics, published earlier this year, indicated that between 2016 and 2019 a child in Wales had a 13 per cent likelihood of being in persistent poverty. Furthermore, 31 per cent of children were living in relative income poverty in the 2017 to 2020 period. This figure had increased from the 28 per cent previously reported, and represents the highest percentage figure for all of the UK nations.
Poverty affects every aspect of a child’s life. At school, it can lock children out of opportunities to participate, to learn and to thrive. In every school in Wales, an increasing number of families are struggling to afford the basics. Poverty rates have been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and now, with the subsequent cost-of-living crisis, many more families need support. Eighty-eight per cent of NEU Cymru members say that the child poverty experienced by their learners has deteriorated since the start of 2020, and a survey undertaken by them showed the dire effects of poverty on students: 92 per cent of learners showed signs of tiredness; 86 per cent struggled to concentrate; 71 per cent showed signs of hunger during the school day; 31 per cent showed signs of ill health; and 23 per cent experienced bullying because their family is in poverty. That's happening in Wales in 2022. Every child deserves equitable access to education, but schools alone cannot provide all of the support that these learners need.
As we've discussed several times in this Siambr, the cost of the school day causes many issues for learners from low-income families. Families are regularly asked to contribute towards the cost of school uniform, trips, charity fundraising, school meals and snacks, and to provide equipment and resources for particular projects. And although support is available, it doesn’t go far enough, meaning that schools either cannot do some things that would enrich the lives of their pupils, because their own budgets are under pressure, or those learners who cannot afford to participate lose out.
There are heartbreaking stories across Wales of children not showing their parents letters from school because they don’t want to cause them extra stress—they don't even talk about a trip. I visited a school in my region recently, and the school parliament told me that they'd decided that they wouldn't undertake many of the activities that they would usually undertake because they knew that that would cause stress for parents. These are primary school children deciding not to put their parents under stress because of the cost-of-living crisis.
Research shows that children and young people from less affluent homes are more likely to report higher levels of loneliness, are less satisfied with their lives, and are less likely to enjoy going to school. It is a cause of great concern that the social exclusion felt by low-income learners is frequently heightened by other forms of inequality, with lower income children from Gypsy, Roma, Traveller and black communities more likely to report that they are lonely and unhappy at school, compared to white Welsh and white British children of a similar socioeconomic status.
Child poverty also leaves clear gaps in educational attainment, something that I discussed with pupils from Llanishen High School when they visited the Senedd yesterday. I heard from them, and their teacher, that the cost of transport is a barrier to some pupils attending school, and that this affects the attainment of the most vulnerable pupils. I have raised this issue several times over the past few months, but the problem persists and is, indeed, getting worse.
It is clear that what we are currently doing isn’t working and isn’t going far enough. Not only do we need a strategy, but we need defined targets that will be closely and consistently monitored if we are to tackle this problem. A commitment was made in the past to eradicate child poverty by 2020. In 2022, the situation is worse than ever before. Every child and young person deserves better.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Like many adverse childhood experiences, poverty impacts a young person in many ways, from their health and cognitive development to social and educational outcomes. The consequences of this can stay with a person all their lives. That's why it's so unforgivable that most vulnerable families have had to bear the brunt of Tory austerity measures over the last 12 years. The introduction of universal credit has left millions of people worse off, and we've also seen the devastating impacts of the bedroom tax, the two-child limit, and the frozen local housing allowance. These can no longer be dismissed as tough but necessary decisions. The Tory party continues to make political choices to protect the very rich, whilst one in three children across the UK are living in poverty.
We've also seen a race to the bottom with employment standards under their watch. Well-below-inflation wage increases and zero-hours contracts have caused in-work poverty rates to increase. The Welsh Labour Government has done what it can to mitigate the impact of these policies. Our party believes in universality, that nobody should be left behind, and that's why Wales is leading the way with universal free school meals, free childcare from two years of age, free school breakfasts, free prescriptions, the pupil deprivation grant scheme, and the council tax reduction scheme. These policies put money back into people's pockets, and, believe me, this is needed now more than ever. Investing in early years and education remains one of the most powerful levers to tackle inequality, embed prevention, and invest in our future generations.
The Welsh Government budget contains an additional £320 million up to 2024-25 to continue its long-term programme of educational reform and ensure educational inequalities narrow and standards rise. This includes an additional £30 million for childcare and early-years provision, £40 million for Flying Start and Families First, and £90 million for free school meals, £64.5 million for wider schools and curriculum reform, and £63.5 million investment in post-16 provision. I welcome this dedication to investing in education and our younger people, but we must accept that the Welsh Government is limited in what it can do while the UK Government continues to underfund public services.
Wales has a more elderly population, greater rurality, poor transport connectivity, and a larger reliance on public service funding, with a third of people being employed in public services. Many of these, such as nursing and social care, impact more on women, who still today are often the main carer for children. Wales needs to be better funded. This was known when we were a part of Europe, as we were net beneficiaries. Wales received £245 million more from the European Union than what it paid in, and the overall benefit to Wales was around £79 per head in 2014. Since then, this funding has not been replaced. We need a fit-for-purpose, cradle-to-grave welfare system that ensures that no-one falls into the grips of poverty, and until the UK Government makes a u-turn on its path to austerity, this cannot be achieved. Thank you.

Cefin Campbell MS: We are all far too aware of how common child poverty is in Wales. It's not a new phenomenon—it's an issue that is deep rooted here in Wales, and has been for far too long, and it continues to have far-reaching and damaging impacts. Wales has been on the top of child poverty league tables across the UK year upon year, which is a cause for national shame. With the current cost-of-living crisis and with food, fuel, and energy costs all rising exponentially, many families who managed to make ends meet are now being pushed into poverty.

Cefin Campbell MS: In Mid and West Wales, recent figures showed the seriousness of the situation in our rural and coastal communities. Those several areas of Wales saw a fall in child poverty rates between 2014 and 2019. In some rural, coastal regions, child poverty continued to rise alarmingly. Of the six local authorities in Wales seeing an increase in child poverty rates, five were in rural or coastal areas, contrary to how the issue might commonly be perceived as a predominantly urban issue. This year, Loughborough University published new research on behalf of the End Child Poverty coalition. In Ceredigion, more than 35 per cent of children lived below the poverty line; 33.3 per cent in Powys; 34.4 per cent in Gwynedd; and 34.6 per cent in Carmarthenshire—all of these in my region. At 35.5 per cent, Pembrokeshire, a county whose house prices are amongst the highest in Wales and with a high prevalence of second homes, has the highest child poverty rate of all Welsh local authorities. Child poverty in rural areas is driven by low income and poor economic outcomes, lack of access to public transport and fuel poverty, poor public service provision, high rents, and lack of affordable housing, among other factors. Amid relative affluence in parts of Mid and West Wales, child poverty often hides in plain sight.
The Bevan Foundation highlights that figures relating to child poverty do not truly capture the impact of this deprivation and poverty on the lives of the children experiencing it. We know that when children grow up in poverty, the effects will stay with them for the rest of their lives. It is clear that the damage is done early. According to the Bevan Foundation, child poverty may later affect mental health, self image and self-esteem, physical health and education. It can also impact subsequent career paths, the ability to socialise normally, and it increases the likelihood of being involved in crime, as either the victim or perpetrator. Minister, while I understand it is the Tories in Westminster and their heartless programme of austerity that need to answer for worsening deprivation across the UK, it is the Welsh Labour Party who have governed in Wales since the outset of devolution. Having recently celebrated your party's centenary, is there a risk that failure to tackle child poverty may become the legacy of the Labour Government in Wales?

Cefin Campbell MS: I urge you, Minister, to redouble your efforts using all of the powers available to you and this Government to tackle child poverty. Thank you.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Luke Fletcher AS: Let's be clear: the fact that poverty exists is a complete and utter failure of the Government—Governments on both sides of the M4. It's a failure of both Parliaments, and it's a failure of an economic system, a system that benefits from and encourages maximum profit at the cost of people, because that's what we're talking about here—people. That's what's behind poverty figures—people and their families. The fact that 31 per cent of children in Wales are living in relative income poverty is nothing short of a crime.
Pre pandemic, we saw a growing trend in levels of household food insecurity. That trend has only worsened due to the cost-of-living crisis, deepening the financial hardships faced by many households across Wales. Food poverty is a major issue. The very existence, let alone the rise in the use, of food banks, as well as the increase in holiday hunger initiatives, is a testament to a failed system. That said, of course, we are rolling out free school meals to all primary school pupils, which is a step in the right direction. I visited Ysgol Gymraeg Bro Ogwr back in late November, my old primary, to see this policy in action, and I have to say, the neuadd and the meinciauwere a lot smaller than I remember, but it was a moment of pride for me, knowing that Plaid Cymru pushed to make this happen. But we do need to go further. Poverty doesn't end when you go to comp or go to college. Fundamentally, having a meal at school should be part of the school day.
Whilst free school meals are one of the important steps we can take to tackle child poverty and hunger, there are glaring gaps in food security and nutrition, as many children struggle to eat adequately. In the past 12 months, 14 per cent of people in Wales had run out of food before they could afford to buy more. The 2022 child poverty progress report highlights this. Currently, food inflation has reached its highest in 42 years and it's predicted to rise further. Average prices for the cheapest groceries have risen more than other food items, meaning households before now buying the cheapest foods have seen their bills rise drastically, and have limited scope to trade down. This has also driven a rise in demand for emergency food provisions.
A substantial amount of teachers and school staff notice children returning to school hungry on the first day after the holidays. In July 2017, a foodbank in Swansea ran out of food due to holiday hunger. The Trussell Trust, where over a third of all food is distributed to children, say that demand for food goes up even higher during the holidays. The reality is we must abolish holiday hunger, and it needs to happen now.
Llywydd, since my election in 2021, I have campaigned to increase the education maintenance allowance as well as to increase the threshold, and now more than ever this change needs to be implemented. The End Child Poverty coalition surveyed 476 young people about the cost-of-living crisis, and alarmingly, 97 per cent said they thought the rising cost of living was a problem for young people aged 16 to 25 today. The words of a 17-year-old in college in Wales were as follows: 'I can't use heating anymore, because it's too costly, and we can't find anywhere to live, since our rent contract is ending and rent has gone up exponentially. I hate struggling like this. It makes me feel like everything is just not worth living. I'm cold. Soon, my family will be in a crappy living situation, and I can't even appreciate other activities because I can't afford them.'
We should, of course, be proud of EMA in Wales, but we should also recognise that it is currently falling short. The cash support provided is not enough; it hasn't changed since 2004. According to the education Minister, it should be at about £54 a week today, rather than £30, meaning successive Welsh Governments have cut the real-terms worth of EMA by a third over the last decade and a half. This cut has deep implications, especially since thresholds for EMA have largely remained unchanged since 2011. This has created a major disparity among learners, as they now must be substantially poorer than their contemporaries back in 2011 to be entitled to support at all.
I listened with great interest yesterday in relation to the additional £28 million to education. I would be grateful if the Minister at some point could give an indication as to whether or not some of that additional funding could be used for EMA. After all, the 2022 child poverty progress report states that tackling inequality is fundamental to Welsh Government's efforts to tackle poverty in Wales, specifically reducing educational inequalities. If the Welsh Government is truly passionate about taking the actions and decisions to reduce inequalities associated with poverty, then it could start by reviewing and revising EMA.
To conclude, Llywydd, experiencing poverty early in life can have a detrimental impact on life prospects further down the line. Poverty is the biggest challenge facing Welsh Government. It affects health, it affects attainment, it affects us all. Priorities—that's the aim of the Government, so we're told, especially with the budget it now has. In my view, tackling child poverty must be that priority.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I have to emphasise the importance of this debate from our benches this afternoon. I'll focus on the clear connection between poverty and health issues. We are going through a very difficult financial situation at the moment, that's clear from the draft budget that was discussed yesterday, which has major restrictions placed upon it in genuinely hard times. And it's no surprise in that context that there is so much frustration as a result. But, more than ever, we have a situation where money is tight for the majority, with families in all parts of Wales having to find ways to save money over the coming months. But, for those living in genuine poverty, the next few months will be even more difficult. It's a problem, of course, that existed long before the cost-of-living crisis, but it is far, far more difficult now.
As we've heard already, Wales has the highest proportion of poverty levels amongst our children and young people throughout the UK. The impact that child poverty has on their health, not just today but for the rest of their lives in several cases, is very serious. A balanced and healthy diet can be very expensive, unfortunately, even more so during a cost-of-living crisis. Now, one in every four children is obese or overweight when starting in primary school, and almost half of those are, indeed, obese. And we are fully aware of the link between children living in poverty and obesity. There's nothing new in that. But, in looking at the figures, which are genuinely frightening, and then studying the plans of the Government, one sees that there isn't anything clear in place that tries to tackle these issues. There's insufficient focus on decreasing those figures, so we have to place much greater emphasis and attention to the preventative measures. That's a sermon that you hear from me very often here.
The impact of obesity amongst our children and young people is greater health issues when they grow up, more pressure on our health service. Children living in poverty are twice as likely to be suffering from obesity or being overweight than a child not living in poverty. Now, the initial steps have been taken to tackle this, I would hope, through the co-operation agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru to ensure that every child receives a healthy school meal. But, we do have to see far greater steps. We need to see a further strategy from the Government and a plan in place to ensure that healthy food and access to exercise, by ensuring that the resources are available, are available to every child within and without the school walls. That would be a genuine step towards tackling health problems in general.
Obesity has a genuinely negative impact physically on children in the long term—diabetes, type 2, cardiac issues, stroke and so on—but it also has an impact on their self-image, self-confidence and the mental health of individuals in general. And of course mental health issues can start for several reasons. The number suffering from mental health issues are increasing. We know that. And that increase has been even more prominent post pandemic. Around 12 per cent of year 7 pupils are suffering from mental health problems, and that level increases to 22 per cent by year 11. And, as evidence demonstrates, it's those children from those less affluent families, again, who suffer most. These are children who are twice as likely to be bullied at school, who are less likely to make friends or to retain a close circle of friends at school, children seeing their own parents suffering as a result of the difficult decisions that they have to make every day because cash is tight for them. And of course, that is going to have an impact on the mental health of the child. With more children living in poverty, it’s no surprise that the mental health figures are still increasing here in Wales.
To conclude, whilst our economic situation continues to deteriorate, the priority, of course, now is to ensure that the poorest in our communities are warm this winter, they receive food, and they keep well and healthy, but whilst dealing with that acute issue, we need to accelerate the work, to make it far, far more of a priority to take the preventative steps—the vital preventative steps—so that we raise the most needy out of poverty. We need a child poverty strategy with clear targets and ambitious targets, and we need that for our children in all parts of Wales.

The Minister for Social Justice now, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Ido want to thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate on this really important subject, especially in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, which, we all fear, will drive child poverty rates here and across the UK even higher.
Llywydd, Wales has a child poverty strategy; we have had one since 2011, and Wales was also the first UK nation to introduce legislation to tackle child poverty, and this placed a duty on Welsh Ministers to publish a child poverty strategy setting out how we will tackle it, and to report every three years on the progress we've made in achieving those objectives. Yesterday, I laid our child poverty progress report for 2022 before this Senedd, and issued a written statement. And I've given a commitment, as Members will see in my statement, to refresh our child poverty strategy so that it reflects the current challenging circumstances and sets out a renewed undertaking to supporting those who need support the most.
We're already engaging with partners and stakeholders. Indeed, in our cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee, which meets weekly, we engage with those policy advisers, and people with lived experience, including, for example, the Child Poverty Action Group—you mentioned their evidence today. But also, voices from children and young people and the children's commissioner engaged, and we got that lived experience of the impact of the cost-of-living crisis. But a consultation on the refreshed child poverty strategy is now being taken forward, and we will be informed, in taking the strategy forward, by the research that we commissioned that’s been undertaken by the Wales Centre for Public Policy on what works in tackling poverty and looking at international comparisons, looking at ways in which we can learn from the evidence to take this forward, but also taking on board the findings of the recent report from the Auditor General for Wales, which looks at what more we could be doing if we are to meet the scale of the challenge with which we're faced.
The last three years have been unlike any that we’ve had to navigate since devolution, and many of our programmes came to a halt during the pandemic while others were escalated to address the urgent needs of people across Wales. In fact, we repurposed; we had new responses throughout the pandemic on all areas of policy across the Welsh Government. And, in fact, the progress report does, as you will read, capture the way that we refocused that funding and adapted our activity to meet the needs of people during the pandemic.
But this is an approach that we have continued as we respond to the cost-of-living crisis, which is having a disproportionate impact on families who are already financially vulnerable. As we heard yesterday from the Finance Minister in the statement about the draft budget—'a budget for hard times in hard times'—challenging, we continue to adapt our approach to ensure that we can continue supporting people through the cost-of-living crisis in the face of a perfect storm of financial pressures. And it was vital that that draft budget contained an additional £18.8 million to continue the support for the discretionary assistance fund, and it included funding to pay the real living wage for social care workers and additional support for our basic income pilot.
But the draft budget also will ensure that we can maintain all those other programmes in Wales, which put money back into people's pockets, from free prescriptions to universal primary free school meals—of course, as a result of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru—support with the cost of sending children to school, and a 'Claim what's yours' campaign to ensure that people take up all the benefits that they're entitled to. It is important that I respond to the issue about statutory targets, which I appreciate you've put. The Welsh Government does set targets in relation to individual programmes that support families to prosper and thrive, and we do also use a set of child poverty indicators to measure our progress in achieving our child poverty objectives, and Members can see in our child poverty progress report the progress that we've made. Of course, that was published yesterday. And we recognise that calls have been made for targets in the delivery plan for tackling child poverty, and we're committed to having this as part of the development work as we consult and move forward.
But our best efforts continue to be hindered by decisions taken by the UK Government, and its wider policies on welfare support and inequitable funding. The pandemic, yes, has entrenched disadvantage for vulnerable households, and now the cost-of-living crisis is having a devastating impact on households that are already financially weakened. Families with young children are particularly at risk, as Carolyn Thomas has highlighted, and yes, Mark Isherwood, austerity was a choice and continues to be a choice of this Tory UK Government.

Mark Isherwood rose—

Jane Hutt AC: We will continue to support households. What are you doing, Mark Isherwood?

Mark Isherwood AC: Are you not concerned that that approach makes you sound more like Liz Truss than Alistair Darling?

Jane Hutt AC: I wonder, Mark Isherwood, if you would join me in calling on the UK Government to abolish the appalling benefit cap and the two-child limit on child benefit. That is actually what's driving children into poverty, Mark Isherwood. Yes, we will do all we can to support households affected by the crisis, but the key levers for tackling child poverty, powers over the tax and welfare system, sit with the UK Government. The UK Government's mismanagement of the economy over the last 12 years—12 years—compounded by that disastrous Liz Truss mini-budget in September, has seen the UK Government once again slide into recession, and where are we? A decade of austerity has made the UK one of the most unequal societies in the developed world, and we enter recession in the weakest position of any of the G7 economies. I could go on—the Office for Budget Responsibility, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Bank of England, all recognising the disaster of Tory policies. Record levels of inflation—and let's face it, inflation hits the poorest people much harder than the wealthiest, much, much harder in terms of food and fuel prices.
So, I will finish my contribution, Llywydd, by saying: can we all join together in recognising what I've said in terms of moving forward with the refreshed child poverty strategy? Can we join together in this Chamber today and make three calls to the UK Government, a few practical actions that would have an immediate impact and positive impact on those who are most affected by the cost-of-living crisis, our children and young people? First of all, will you join me in calling on energy companies to absorb the cost of standing charges for pre-payment customers? They're particularly at risk of disconnection at this moment, as we speak, in our country. Will you also call on the UK Government to uplift the discretionary housing payment and local housing allowances? That will help protect vulnerable people at risk of homelessness and actually help Government save money. And also, will you also recognise that the arbitrary five-week wait for universal credit payments is the root cause of severe financial hardship and distress for many people? We call on the UK Government to stop that damaging and unnecessary wait.
So, finally, in the longer term, the scale of the undertaking to both prevent and lift people out of poverty in Wales is immense. We must do our part. We have to play our part—we recognise that as a Welsh Government—to support people, tackle the inequalities that blight people's lives, create a positive future for everyone. But we must see concerted action from the UK Government to do the same to prevent another generation of children slipping below the poverty line thanks to 12 years of austerity and the disasters of this UK Government in terms of the recession.

Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I want to thank all Members for their contributions to the debate this afternoon. I agree with the Minister for Social Justice that the UK Government holds key levers, not all the levers, but key levers for tackling poverty, those powers over tax and welfare systems. She said that progress in tackling child poverty in Wales continues to be hindered by decisions taken in Westminster, which influence levels of poverty in Wales and are being felt most severely by those who are already disadvantaged. I completely agree—another example of how Westminster doesn't work for Wales and is failing Welsh children.
Mark Isherwood talked a lot about this issue. I don't really recognise his version of recent economic history, but I did agree with his point that this issue does have a long history here in Wales, and I did agree with his support for calls for a Welsh benefits system. Because Welsh Government must recognise that they do have tax-raising powers. They administer a range of social protection schemes, many of which were referenced in the progress report, that allow cash transfer to Welsh citizens, including, as Luke Fletcher spoke about, the educational maintenance allowance, the pupil deprivation grant. It's why we on these benches, and anti-poverty campaigners, want to see a coherent and streamlined Welsh benefits system.
Rhun spoke about the terrible and worrying connection between poverty and health issues, and these are health problems that will happen now and for the rest of young people and children's lives. He talked about the importance of preventative work in this regard. Heledd Fychan talked about how poverty affects every aspect of a child's life, and Cefin talked about how it's a problem in every part of Wales, even surprising parts of Wales, places like Pembrokeshire, which we consider to be havens—pretty havens—with, as he said, too-high levels of second homes and astronomic rents, which push people into poverty. And I think the housing aspect of child poverty must be properly recognised.
I agree that there have been welcome steps made, and many Members made reference to things like universal free school meals in primary schools. We'd like to see those expanded, as Luke rightfully pointed out. Poverty also affects young people. The Child Poverty Action Group have pointed out, through the survey Luke referenced, how young people and teens are uniquely affected by poverty—their transport costs, their equipment needs are higher. What the children of Wales who are living in poverty really need is a clear vision, clear measurable lines of accountability, so that we don't end up in the same place we did last time, and this need is urgent.
The harms of poverty have already befallen too many of our children since the last progress report was issued, and those harms will stay with them, will hamper life chances, will affect, as we heard, their mental and physical health, and those harms are happening now. So, what is there not to gain by supporting our motion? The Welsh Government should put its political pride aside for the sake of our children.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting time. Okay. We will now vote on item 7, the debate that we've just heard—the Plaid Cymru debate on child poverty. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote—I apologise. There is one Member still to vote.

One Member is still to vote. I think he's just noticed.

Close the vote. In favour eight, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Child Poverty. Motion without amendment: For: 8, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be de-selected. I call for a vote on amendment 1.Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 22 against. Amendment 1 is therefore agreed, and amendment 2 is deselected.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Child Poverty. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 24, Against: 22, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

The final vote is therefore on the motion as amended by amendment 1.

Motion NDM8165 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the significant investment of the Welsh Government in tackling child poverty and that in line with its current child poverty strategy, the Welsh Government will this month publish its update report and will be publishing a refreshed strategy in 2023.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, eight abstentions and 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Child Poverty. Motion as amended: For: 24, Against: 14, Abstain: 8
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting. Before I call the short debate—

—may I wish you all a happy Christmas, a merry Christmas, when it comes?

I wish you all a happy and peaceful Christmas. Merry Christmas.

9. Short Debate: Banking Services in Cymraeg

We will now move to the short debate, and I'm sure everyone will leave quietly.

Members can leave quietly as we are still about our business here, and I will call on Jack Sargeant to introduce his short debate, and to start the final debate of 2022. Over to you, Jack.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to bring this important debate before the Senedd today.

Jack Sargeant AC: Llywydd, in opening today's debate, I agreed to give one minute of my time in this final debate of the Senedd term to Rhun ap Iorwerth. Presiding Officer, I did table this debate, titled 'Banking Services in Cymraeg', following an issue brought to me by a constituent of Alyn and Deeside. They had decided to register an online bank account for their newborn child. They decided to register that with Halifax banking group. To do so, they had to upload a birth certificate. This is where the problems began. Birth certificates issued in Cymru are two-sided. The Halifax website, which is part of the Lloyds banking group, only allowed for a one-sided certificate to be uploaded. Well, what did this mean? This meant that it was a 'no' from Halifax. They would not allow bilingual Welsh birth certificates to be uploaded. Their system was clear. They only allowed English birth certificates. The answer that they gave to my constituents, Presiding Officer, was to, 'Travel to your nearest branch instead.' Well, this does raise some serious issues of concern for me and, I’m sure, many Members of the Chamber today. We are fiercely proud of being a bilingual nation, and financial service providers not allowing bilingual birth certificates is something that we simply cannot accept. Now, I am pleased that I did receive confirmation from the Financial Conduct Authority, in a letter to me yesterday, that Halifax, part of the Lloyds banking group, following the tabling of this motion, has, and I quote:
'recently completed the work to allow this to happen'.
Obviously, I am very pleased, and I’m sure that Members will agree with me about being pleased, about that action taken. But, quite simply, it shouldn’t have needed to be taken, and it shouldn't have taken a Senedd debate to correct that matter. But, Presiding Officer, it also raises the issue of bank closures. Right across Wales, banks have closed branches, claiming that all services can be accessed online. But that simply isn’t true. We've proven that today already. But it also is the case that whole towns have completely lost banking provision, often against the backdrop of community campaigners. In Buckley, in my own constituency, we have seen every single bank close. And at the time of the final bank closure, a petition launched by a local town councillor, Carolyn Preece, went viral across Wales and across the United Kingdom, with tens of thousands of people signing it, calling for banks to listen to people in their local communities and provide those local services we all need. And in my work as a Member of the Senedd for Alyn and Deeside, I continue to work to open Wales's first community bank in Buckley. It is the lack of responsiveness from high-street retail banks to local communities like Buckley in my constituency, like many across all of our constituencies, that partly drives my work in that area. I want to put it this way: we have been let down by high-street banks, and the failure to respect the Welsh language, as we have demonstrated today, is one in a very long line of examples.
Llywydd, of course a community bank would be different, and I'm sure, if you were to speak to Banc Cambria in the coming weeks, they would tell you of the importance they place on Cymraeg. But in the meantime, Llywydd, I want to appeal to every single high-street bank in Wales to take the Welsh language seriously, to take our local people and our local communities seriously.
As the Llywydd said before, this is the final piece of Senedd business in the Siambr of 2022, and, of course, I wanted to shine a light today on how banking services are not all they should be. Of course, I wanted to highlight the importance of Banc Cambria and the community bank for Wales, but, of course, I also wanted to wish you all, Members here and those working within our Senedd, Nadolig llawen, a very happy new year, but if I may, Presiding Officer, Llywydd, I'll reflect and revert back to my last contribution of the 2019 Senedd term by stating again: all I want for Christmas is a bank in Buckley.

Very good. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Oh, I'm not meant to comment on the speeches of Members, but I broke a rule there. Da iawn, Jack. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: May I thank Jack for bringing this short debate forward today? I want to take you back some 30 years. I was chair of the University of Wales branch of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg when I was invited to be part of a delegation to go to Barclays's headquarters in Wales, which was on Queen Street in Cardiff, to lobby for a Welsh option on cash points. Now, cash points were relatively new at that point, and they were in English only. It was explained to us that the bank supported the principle but that there were technological barriers at the time in introducing a Welsh option. Of course, we achieved Welsh cash points ultimately, and that was another small victory in the history of the language campaign. But here we are, 30 years later, and we still hear of technological barriers in making fundamental parts of banking services available bilingually. Our branches are being closed in towns in all corners of Wales, as we heard from Jack—branches where people, even before the Welsh language cash point was available, could enjoy a Welsh language service entirely naturally, provided by bilingual staff, for many years. But, as the branches close, we are encouraged to use online services, and those still aren't available in Welsh. I use online banking on a daily basis, I'm sure, and that is entirely through the medium of English, and that is not acceptable. Banking and financial services are fundamental services, so, come on, banks, and play your part in supporting and encouraging bilingualism.

The Minister for Social Justice to reply—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Financial and digital equality, choice and inclusion is a priority and is vitally important to me.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm absolutely focused on ensuring equality of access for all the people of Wales in whatever geographical, cultural and personal situation they find themselves. I do thank Jack Sargeant for bringing forward the debate, and welcome the focus of this debate on banking services in Cymraeg and our ambition to make Wales a truly bilingual nation.
But, of course, the responsibility for our financial services in the UK, including banking, isn't devolved to the Senedd. So, Welsh Government can't ensure banking availability, but we're very closely working with those who are able to do so. And in relation to this particular issue, we have to look to our Welsh Language Commissioner, who has a responsibility to work with the banking sector in Wales and to encourage them to treat the Welsh and English languages equally. This includes offering assistance in developing suitable technology to help them in providing Welsh language services. So, it is very disappointing to hear about this situation that affected your constituent. What an awful situation with that newborn baby in Wales, and the fact that the IT system used by Halifax didn't support that fully bilingual online service. And it just demonstrates the concerns that you and all of us and the Welsh Government share that online banking is not an alternative, I would say, to a physical branch either. But, you have made an impact already—the Member has made a huge impact by getting a response from the Financial Conduct Authority, so that's a real win in terms of your influence and the role of this Senedd, and our Senedd Members, and particularly Jack Sargeant, I would say, in relation to this issue.

Jane Hutt AC: There are positive stories coming from the banking sector. For example, the Welsh Language Commissioner has collaborated with Santander to launch new cash point machines that remember consumers' language preference, and also Welsh Government has business officials who assist businesses to use more Welsh. We've got a helpline that's being launched in the next few months to offer support to businesses and provide a free translation service, and that will make it easier for businesses to treat Welsh and English equally. Also, experimental work is being undertaken in technology to make it easier for organisations of all types to know whether their IT systems are capable of delivering quality Welsh and bilingual services. And I think Rhun ap Iorwerth's comments on this in terms of online banking are important and relevant. But, of course, you often need detailed technical guidance and you need specifications when designing computer systems, and embedded throughout this work is the equal treatment of the Welsh language, and acknowledging that so many people in communities throughout Wales want to undertake essential activities through the first language of choice and bilingually.
Also, the existence of services and opportunities to use Welsh doesn't guarantee that people will take advantage of them. The evidence on Welsh speakers' use of bilingual services suggest that uptake of Welsh language services can be influenced by a range of factors, including accessibility, visibility of the service, speakers' perceptions, quality of provision, amongst others. So, our focus on bilingual provision includes providing those innovative services, such as shared banking hubs and our plans for a community bank, all of which provide opportunities for people to receive their banking services in Wales. But, we do have to say, from this debate today, brought by Jack Sargeant, I strongly urge banks of all types to be a welcoming and encouraging place to practise and grow confidence in the use of Welsh.
So, I will turn briefly to this key point about our community bank and just give a bit of an update. I'd really like to thank Jack Sargeant for the role he's played in bringing forward Banc Cambria with his ambitions to locate community bank facilities within the constituency. And I will say, let's hope, if we meet again this time next year with a similar debate, you will get your bank for Christmas in Buckley. But, there are so many communities across Wales who are waiting for this community bank and who want to undertake those day-to-day functions through their first language of Welsh. This is going to be a really important aspect of the community bank. It will provide those opportunities to receive their banking services in Welsh.
Critical in our aspirations to have a community bank in Wales is to have them based on mutual values, and it presents the opportunity to provide a fully bilingual service. I don't think this has come out enough in our discussions and questioning about the community bank. It can provide accessible face-to-face and digital services for customers through the medium of Welsh in a key sector of the economy, whilst at the same time offering employment in contributing to the 1 million by 2050 Welsh language strategy.
So, there is a commercial proposition now for establishing this community bank. It's being developed by the Monmouthshire Building Society. They've undertaken detailed work over recent months—I met with them recently—informing their location strategy. A key element of their considerations has been the Welsh language, and the Welsh Government obviously recognises and is respectful of the fact that this is a commercial proposition being developed by MBS, with support from Cambria Cydfuddiannol Ltd.So, further details haven't yet been shared with the Welsh Government on the specifics of the plans, but we hope to have those in the near future. And, indeed, Vaughan Gething, the Minister for Economy, wrote recently to Monmouthshire Building Society, underlying the importance of Welsh language services to the Welsh Government's aspirations for a community bank in Wales. So, we remain committed to the creation of the community bank in Wales, the emergence of a mutually-based and inclusive financial model that serves the people of Wales.
And, just in terms of access to cash, I welcome the intervention by Link and Post Office to introduce shared banking hubs. And that's been identified as being necessary following the loss of high street banks across Wales, and raised so regularly in this Chamber.
So, working with key partners across the banking sector, Wales is supporting a combination of innovation, diverse, inclusive initiatives that, together, will help increase access to a truly bilingual banking service for all the people of Wales. And it's about finding the best bilingual and tailored solution at the heart of this hugely important work.
And—

Jane Hutt AC: —a very merry Christmas to you all.

Jane Hutt AC: Nadolig Llawen, Jack Sargeant—you will get your bank back in Buckley. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Minister.

And there endeth our Christmas banking debate. We look forward to next year's version. And we'll all be there in Buckley for that bank opening.

A very merry Christmas to you all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:17.

QNR

Questions to the Economy Minister

Mark Isherwood: What assessment has the Minister made of the economic outlook in Wales?

Vaughan Gething: Our 'Economic resilience and reconstruction mission' sets out our vision to make Wales an attractive place to live, study, work and invest. An important element of this is improving gross disposable household income per head in Wales by 2035 and committing to set a stretching growth target for 2050.

Janet Finch-Saunders: What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of strikes on the Welsh economy?

Vaughan Gething: We support the right of all workers to take industrial action but recognise this can be disruptive for businesses and households across Wales. It is in everyone’s interest in disputes to negotiate fair settlements that protect the lowest paid and most vulnerable workers, while avoiding damage to the wider economy.

Peter Fox: How is the Minister working with the Minister for Climate Change to help businesses reduce their carbon emissions?

Vaughan Gething: I regularly meet with the Minister for Climate Change to discuss climate change and decarbonisation. We are working together closely on policies to help businesses deliver in line with our shared net-zero carbon objectives.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Mark Isherwood: How does the Welsh Government ensure accessible healthcare for people with sensory loss?

Eluned Morgan: The 'All-Wales Standards for Accessible Communication and Information for People with Sensory Loss' sets out the standards of service delivery that people with sensory loss should expect when accessing healthcare. These standards apply to all adults, young people and children.

Sioned Williams: What is the Government's strategy to ensure accessibility for disabled people in the health service?

Eluned Morgan: The NHS in Wales has an obligation in law to make its services accessible to the people we serve, taking account of a number of factors including disability. Welsh Government officials continue to work with all health organisations across Wales to ensure that these obligations are met.

Samuel Kurtz: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the NHS workforce this winter?

Eluned Morgan: Welsh Government are working with NHS employers and trade unions to ensure that staff are supported. This will be provided through a range of initiatives, including promoting and protecting staff health and well-being through providing fundamental principles of physically and psychologically safe working environments, along with effective workforce planning and management.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing

Ken Skates: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to protect children and young people's mental health and well-being?

Lynne Neagle: We are taking a whole-system approach to protecting children and young people’s mental health. We have invested significantly in mental health support from early intervention to specialist services. We have also introduced statutory guidance to embed mental well-being in schools and we are implementing the Nest/Nyth framework across Wales.